Posts by truth_b

47

JWs don’t use the apocryphal, yet source them

by Anony Mous in

so a quick little note about a few things that i recently learned.

if you ever had the yellow book of bible stories, there was the story of enoch, also repeated in other watchtower publications, about the angels fathering giants and being a menace on earth.

now if you look at the nicean bible, which is the wtbts selection of the bible, it mentions enoch twice and only has a very brief passage about nephilim and ben elohim.

truth_b_known

Thats an extremely shaky foundation that 30% of the world have put their faith in.

Consider the fact that the entire "Western World" only has 2 degrees of separation at most from the Roman Empire (either directly a part of the empire or a colony of a nation formerly part of the empire). The same Roman Empire that adopted Christianity as the official state religion. It was a convert of die world.

How many cultures' natural course of evolution was interrupted or destroyed because of Rome?

"May he spend one night in Valhalla before the Christ god takes him away." - Old Norse saying to the dead

47

JWs don’t use the apocryphal, yet source them

by Anony Mous in

so a quick little note about a few things that i recently learned.

if you ever had the yellow book of bible stories, there was the story of enoch, also repeated in other watchtower publications, about the angels fathering giants and being a menace on earth.

now if you look at the nicean bible, which is the wtbts selection of the bible, it mentions enoch twice and only has a very brief passage about nephilim and ben elohim.

truth_b_known

We know from history that tens of thousands of orthodox Jews, (right in the heart of Jerusalem where their claims could be easily refuted if not true), made the Resurrection their central message, abandoned Saturday as their holy day, and accepted Sunday (the day of the Resurrection) as their new holy day.

Know is a strong word.

Why would people just up and submit to the harshest abuse possible unless for something they knew to be false?

Why would people (i.e. "tens of thousands of orthodox Jews") convert to Christianity, submitting themselves to harsh abuse, for something they knew to be false (i.e. the story of Jesus death and resurrection)?

Before we answer the question we must be aware that the "tens of thousands" of Jewish converts in Jerusalem in the first century CE is a number purported once again by the Bible. Not all scholars accept this number. Some believe the number of converts in the Bible is highly exaggerated.

Some scholars (see: Hopkins, K 1998. Christian number and its implications. Journal of Early Christian Studies 6, 185-226) postulate that the Jewish converts in Jerusalem never abandoned their faith in Judaism, Jewish tradition, Jewish worship, or believed the Torah no longer had to be followed. In addition, scholars also have concluded that the number of Jews in Jerusalem in the first century CE never exceeded approximately 1,000 people.

Rather, there seemed to be 2 churches in the first century CE: the Jews in Jerusalem and the Hellenistic non-Jews whom Paul converted. The Hellenistic Christians quickly abandoned Jewish scripture and practices. This caused conflict between the 2 groups.

What information do we have about the first century CE Roman Empire? The Roman cultural was heavily influenced by its predecessors, the Greeks. Greek religion influenced Roman religion. Both had polytheistic religions with humanized gods (The gods had physical bodies and would often visit humans on Earth). Polytheistic religions tend to be accepting of other religions and gods.

What seems more plausible?

1. There were tens of thousands of Jews in Jerusalem who accepted Jesus as the messiah (the Biblical Jesus did not fulfil all the prophecies of the messiah in the Torah), accepted that Jesus died, was buried, and resurrected himself, rejected the Torah and Jewish religion to worship on Sunday or

2. There were thousands of non-Jewish converts to Paul's ministry who were never Jews, were raised in a culture/religion that freely accepted other religions (even an altar to an unknown god), other gods, gods who frequently took human form to interact with other humans, and were even killed only to be resurrected (see: Asclepius Greek god of Medicine who Zeus feared would make man immortal only to be resurrected to Olympus).

47

JWs don’t use the apocryphal, yet source them

by Anony Mous in

so a quick little note about a few things that i recently learned.

if you ever had the yellow book of bible stories, there was the story of enoch, also repeated in other watchtower publications, about the angels fathering giants and being a menace on earth.

now if you look at the nicean bible, which is the wtbts selection of the bible, it mentions enoch twice and only has a very brief passage about nephilim and ben elohim.

truth_b_known

Dr. Gary Habermas goes in to the PhD committee at Michigan State and is told by the committee chair he can do his dissertation on the resurrection of Jesus, but cannot use the Bible to do so. Habermas uses the Bible to prove the resurrection and is awarded his PhD.

The "Minimal Facts" approach isn't a method designed to find the truth, it's a method designed to bolster confidence in the proposed (read: preferred) explanation. - Matt Dillahunty

Regardless of the level of proof that a tomb was found empty, the answer cannot be "It was supernatural powers," until supernatural powers are proven first.

Minimal Facts Approach is based on the following process -

Insert reasonable premises with minimal facts/minimal data
Premises are agreed with by believer and skeptics (whether or not true)
Skeptic is now bound to accept conclusion or be declared irrational

It is not that there are only minimal facts/minimal data. It is this method scales way down the facts/data to just the bare minimum of what both believers and skeptics could agree on in the scholarly realm. These minimal facts are not the only facts. Therefor, this violates the scientific method of validating facts.

Habermas and his co-workers have picked their 12 minimal facts. They then took a list of skeptical scholars and found out that approximately 75% of those scholars seem to agree with those 12 minimal facts. So, what about the other 25%? This is done to write off the 25% to instill certainty in the minimal facts instead of getting to 1 explanation (the truth) that includes all the facts. We do not even know if the same 75% of skeptical scholars agree on the same 12 minimal facts.

12 Minimal Facts of Jesus Resurrection

Jesus died by crucifixion.
He was buried.
His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.
The tomb was empty (the most contested).
The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).
The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.
The resurrection was the central message.
They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.
The Church was born and grew.
Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.
James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).
Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).

With the exception of #9 and #10, all other minimal facts come from the Bible.

Let's look at minimal fact # 1 -

Jesus died by crucifixion.

Most scholars, skeptical or otherwise, would agree that the Bible does tell a story and in that story Jesus dies by crucifixion. Not all scholars believe there was even a historical Jesus. There are many theories which are supported by facts. Jesus' execution at the hands of Romans is a story that originates with Christians and writers of the Bible. This story must be proven as fact before Habermas' first minimal fact can even be addressed.

Some theorize Jesus did not die. One theory is Jesus had a Near Death Experience (NDE) and then went off to hide to heal. After healing Jesus came back to his disciples. It is a plausible theory because even today we have persons who technically die, but are resuscitated. We do not have any experiences of people be resurrected 3 days after dying and their corpse disappearing from their tomb.

We have a major issue with minimal facts 1-8, 11-12. They all come from the Bible. The Bible is a disingenuous book. "Blessed are those who have not seen, and have believed" - John 20:29. That seems to be different than doubt and verify through examination of all facts and data.

Minimal facts #9 & #10 are historical. However, they are not proof of the story. They are only proof that people believed a story. We can say the same about just any major religion in the world. Is the Quran correct? Islam is the fastest growing religion. Muslims adopted the Hijri calendar which is based on Muslim holidays and rituals. Does that mean Islam is the one, true religion or does it mean the nations conquered by the Muslims use the Hijri calendar the same way that nations conquered by Rome were forced to use a calendar based on the Jesus story?

"Do not believe in what you have heard; do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations; do not believe in anything because it is rumored and spoken by many; do not believe merely because a written statement of some old sage is produced; do not believe in conjectures; do not believe in that as truth to which you have become attached from habit; do not believe merely the authority of your teachers and elders. After observation and analysis, when it agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and gain of one and all, then accept it and live up to it." - Siddhartha Gautama (first Buddha),

47

JWs don’t use the apocryphal, yet source them

by Anony Mous in

so a quick little note about a few things that i recently learned.

if you ever had the yellow book of bible stories, there was the story of enoch, also repeated in other watchtower publications, about the angels fathering giants and being a menace on earth.

now if you look at the nicean bible, which is the wtbts selection of the bible, it mentions enoch twice and only has a very brief passage about nephilim and ben elohim.

truth_b_known

You are certainly welcome to your view. But it is not in line with modern scholarship which views the resurrection as one of the most well attested to events in history.

There is no evidence of a historical resurrection of Jesus. Who are "modern scholars"? Dr. Francesca Stavrakapoulou is a modern Bible scholar at the University of Exeter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aUYUK9WXiA

I have looked into the Gary Habermas "Minimal Facts Approach" for attempting to prove the historical resurrection of Jesus. After examining it and cross examining it I found it to be a fine example of Apologetics - it sounds reasonable, but there is still no evidence. It is just logical argument.

I also like this guy's informative statement of "Biblical scholars -

As for modern biblical scholars, that term encompasses several disciplines, including theology, archaeology, history, paleography, and literature. It is probably safe to say that most, but certainly not all, theologians believe that the resurrection actually occurred. I believe that is a safe bet because the largest Christian denominations typically require their clergy to hold an advanced degree in theology or some related discipline.
Outside of the theologians, many of which are Christian clergy, it is virtually impossible to speculate on the percentage of biblical scholars who believe in the resurrection, because they are forbidden by their respective disciplines from publishing their personal religious beliefs in academic publications. When it comes to history, scholars are explicitly required to assume in all academic works that there is no such thing as a miracle. It doesn't matter whether a historian personally believes that the resurrection occurred, they are not allowed by their discipline to claim (in an academic publication) that it occurred. So, unless a scholar goes out of their way to publish their personal beliefs in a non-academic venue of some sort, we have no way to know their thoughts on the subject. - David Lake, Senior Analyst, BA Mathematics

18

The Watchtower—Study Edition | May 2022

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

the watchtower—study edition | may 2022. study article 19. revelation—what it means for you today.

15 satan instigated an attack on the anointed brothers who were taking the lead in the kingdom-preaching work.

prominent ones among them were the figurative “two witnesses” spoken of as being killed.

truth_b_known

eisegesis :
An interpretation, especially of Scripture, that reflects the personal ideas or viewpoint of the interpreter; reading something into a text that isn't there.

If eisegesis were a paintbrush the Watchtower would be DaVinci. It is not only the main tool of creating Watchtower doctrine, but it is a tool the Watchtower wields like a grandmaster.

47

JWs don’t use the apocryphal, yet source them

by Anony Mous in

so a quick little note about a few things that i recently learned.

if you ever had the yellow book of bible stories, there was the story of enoch, also repeated in other watchtower publications, about the angels fathering giants and being a menace on earth.

now if you look at the nicean bible, which is the wtbts selection of the bible, it mentions enoch twice and only has a very brief passage about nephilim and ben elohim.

truth_b_known

From the beginning, Christians used the New Testament as their ONLY guide. Even the OT, while viewed as the word of God with valuable background information, was not in the same class as NT apostolic writings. Why? Simple. Christianity is a single event faith. Jesus rose from the dead. And that supersedes everything else.

The first book that would eventually become the New Testament would be one of the letters Paul wrote to one of the Christian congregations. That puts around 50 CE (1 Thessalonians was written around 51 CE). That's about 18 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus. Keep in mind that only the intended person/congregation who Paul was writing to had immediate access to Paul's letters. The Gospels were written around 68 - 110 CE. So that's a minimum of 35 years after the death and resurrection.

So we are not at 18 years after Jesus' resurrection that any scripture in the modern Bible was written. It was 35 years after Jesus' resurrection that the Gospels are written. That means for the first 18 years of Christianity only the Old Testament an Apocrypha were available. The "single event faith" that supersedes the Old Testament, written scripture, would simply be oral history - aka "story" or "gossip".

That is interesting as Paul writes Timothy in 2 Timothy chapter and tells him that "all scripture is inspired." The only scripture at that point was the Old Testament and Apocrypha. Paul continues that scripture is useful for "teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness". No mention of the word-of-mouth story of Jesus by Paul.

It is starting to seem to me that the entire New Testament is nothing more than some letters from Paul which are nothing more than him trying to steer the religion the way he wants it. Then a minimum of 35 years after Jesus' life, ministry, death, and resurrection someone decides it might be useful to write those events down. Paul even writes in 2 Timothy 2:8 "Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel..."

So, I guess I agree - the resurrection of Jesus is the single faith event of Christianity. It is just that it not Jesus' Gospel. It is Paul's.

25

Are Jehovahs Witnesses a cult?

by GoverningBody in

this question has been presented many times throughout the years.

somewhat recently, there has been much talk surrounding the "bite method" :.

"bite” stands for behavior, information, thought, and emotional control.. some examples were thrown at me, such as the decisions of who we associate with, discouraging any worldy media, encouraging our brothers and sisters to report any of our misbehaviours to the elders, our rejection of criticism on the truth, shunning etc.. what do we think about this?.

truth_b_known

"...I recall they state that a cult has one leader, and that proves they aren't one, end of story..." - Yes, this is what my jw has consistently said. However a group of men can act as 'one' so their explanation doesn't really hold.

Jehovah's Witnesses have one leader. The leader has incorporated under the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society. However, most JWs know of his by his taken name. First name "Governing". Last name "Body".

"Pleased to meet you. Won't you guess my name?!?"

25

Are Jehovahs Witnesses a cult?

by GoverningBody in

this question has been presented many times throughout the years.

somewhat recently, there has been much talk surrounding the "bite method" :.

"bite” stands for behavior, information, thought, and emotional control.. some examples were thrown at me, such as the decisions of who we associate with, discouraging any worldy media, encouraging our brothers and sisters to report any of our misbehaviours to the elders, our rejection of criticism on the truth, shunning etc.. what do we think about this?.

truth_b_known

I appreciated this YouTuber's take on Jehovah's Witnesses. Not just that it is a cult, but to what level they are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFN9hIpiK3g

33

An upcoming Watchtower article saying if people Pioneer Jehovah will provide!

by LongHairGal in

jw
friends

i saw the post on reddit and the thread got many responses..can anybody believe the religion is still saying this??

it has to be as plain as day that so many jws are poor and struggling today because they never got a career or decent job years ago.. sadly, there are still witnesses who believe money will fall from heaven if they are in the full-time ministry.

they expect some miracle to occur..but, we all know the truth: people in the congregation will be hit up for yet more money for another bunch of irresponsible people pursuing poverty.

truth_b_known

It was always my personal observation as a former JW from ages birth to 35 that the "poorer ones" in the organization were what could be described as "spiritual minded" and "loyal to Jehovah". Whereas those who were more well off financially tended to be more "organizationally minded" and "loyal to the organization".

I never met a poor elder in all my years as a JW.

33

An upcoming Watchtower article saying if people Pioneer Jehovah will provide!

by LongHairGal in

jw
friends

i saw the post on reddit and the thread got many responses..can anybody believe the religion is still saying this??

it has to be as plain as day that so many jws are poor and struggling today because they never got a career or decent job years ago.. sadly, there are still witnesses who believe money will fall from heaven if they are in the full-time ministry.

they expect some miracle to occur..but, we all know the truth: people in the congregation will be hit up for yet more money for another bunch of irresponsible people pursuing poverty.

truth_b_known

Bible: The Apostle Paul made tents and sold them (probably to Roman soldiers) to support himself as a fulltime minister.

Watchtower: Be a fulltime minister (Pioneer) and Jehovah will provide for.

Question: Did you get your current job because -

you applied for it and you were the most qualified applicant or
Jehovah temporarily removed your employer's freewill and mind-controlled your employer into hiring you?

Also, I remember my father also reminding of what Jesus said in the Gospels. That Jehovah provides -

Food
Clothing

Jesus even admitted he had no place to lie his head at night. He also said to be satisfied with just food and clothing.

Why the confusion with the Watchtower? No Job = No Donations

truth_b_known

Posts by truth_b_known