I think AnnOMaly is right, to put it in a nutshell. That goes for today. Not sure how many of above arguments were current in Russel's day.
Posts by Vidqun
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11Where is the second witness? (Russell and 1914)
by DT ini have been doing some reading about the millerites and the "great disappointment" of 1844. i cant help but to notice some similarities between the millerites and russell.. the millerites also used a prophecy of 2,520 years, but chose a different starting point.
they also appear to have initially forgotten the zero year, but later corrected their mistake.. i think it's interesting that the millerites had two prophecies that they thought pointed to 1844 (one dealing with 2,520 years and another with 2,300 years).. this kind of makes sense (if you try to relate to their world view), because the bible says that you need two witnesses to establish something.
a person can shuffle numbers in the bible all day, but it's not likely to mean much.
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11
Where is the second witness? (Russell and 1914)
by DT ini have been doing some reading about the millerites and the "great disappointment" of 1844. i cant help but to notice some similarities between the millerites and russell.. the millerites also used a prophecy of 2,520 years, but chose a different starting point.
they also appear to have initially forgotten the zero year, but later corrected their mistake.. i think it's interesting that the millerites had two prophecies that they thought pointed to 1844 (one dealing with 2,520 years and another with 2,300 years).. this kind of makes sense (if you try to relate to their world view), because the bible says that you need two witnesses to establish something.
a person can shuffle numbers in the bible all day, but it's not likely to mean much.
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Vidqun
Depending on one's interpretation of the Scriptures (e.g., whether Michael = Jesus Christ), there are different lines of arguments one can follow. From the following one can pick out a few "witnesses":
So when would the “[the] end time” (= time of [the] end) start? If one examines the course of modern history, one notices that one date, the year 1914, stands out. The period during which the visions of Revelation will unfold is called “the Lord’s day” (cf. Rev. 1:10). This period will start in 1914. How can we know for sure?
The first line of evidence is circumstantial. Revelation 12 indicates the birth of the Messianic Kingdom (Rev. 12:1-5). Jesus Christ would be enthroned in heaven as Jehovah’s appointed king (Dan. 7:13, 14, 26, 27). Under his heavenly name Michael, his first task would be to evict Satan (Rev. 12:9, 10; cf. Dan. 12:1, 2).
The fourth beast, Rome, would eventually sprout an eleventh horn, the British Empire. It would humiliate three horns, Spain, France, and the Netherlands. At the beginning of the end time, this horn would grow large, turning into the Anglo-American world power, later called King of the South (cf. Dan. 7:7, 8, 17, 19-21, 23; 11:27-29). During this time the life of the rest of the political beasts (Babylon = Iraq; Medo-Persia = Iran; Greece) would be prolonged (cf. Dan. 7:4-6, 12; Rev. 17:12, 13).
Those nations under the King of the North and South would become enmeshed in vicious wars over supremacy (cf. Ps. 2:1, 2; 110:1, 2). The prophet Isaiah (19:2) predicted that Jehovah “will goad Egyptians against Egyptians, and they will certainly war each one against his brother, and each one against his companion, city against city, kingdom against kingdom” (cf. Matt. 24:7, 8; Mark 13:8; Luk. 21:10).
Within a biblical context, Egypt could be viewed as the first world power (cf. Rev. 17:10). But here the term “Egyptian” would take on a wider meaning. These kingdoms would fight for the right to rule, in other words for “the scepter of Egypt” (cf. Zech. 10:8-12). The significance of the term “the land of Egypt” will be discussed later.
To confirm the above, we are introduced to four horseman of the Apocalypse. The first horseman, a conquering Christ (cf. Dan. 12:1; Rev. 12:7; 19:11-16), is followed by three horsemen, accurately portraying the conditions on earth since the outbreak of the First World War (cf. Rev. 6:1-3).
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The second line of evidence, pointing to 1914 as the beginning of “[the] end time”, is chronological. This is somewhat controversial, because secular chronology, dealing with the Babylonian monarchy, differs from Bible chronology. The Nabonidus Harran Stele and Ptolemy’s Canon, amongst others, point to 587/586 BCE as the date of the first destruction of Jerusalem. Bible chronology pinpoints the date as 607 BCE. The seven times of Dan. 4 (7 x 360 = 2520 years), otherwise known as the Gentile Times, bring one to 1914 CE (Num. 14:34; Ez. 4:6; Dan. 4:23; Luk. 21:24).
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92
Pre-emptive shunning - a growing reality
by cedars ini'm scanning through some of the results from the 2012 jw survey as they're coming in.. the most populous of the six voting categories with 76 voters so far is my own category, for those who are inactive, or "faded/fading" (not disfellowshipped or da'd, but no longer reporting time on the ministry).. one statistic already leaping out at me surrounds the question "do you experience 'pre-emptive shunning' from active witnesses, who view you as 'bad association'?
" of the 74 who voted on this so far, 76% have answered "yes" to this question.. it's early days, and obviously i will have a clearer picture of the extent of the problem once the survey closes at the end of the year.
however, the results already in suggest that pre-emptive shunning is widespread among inactive ones, despite this not being an "official" policy of the society.. i was interested in your opinions as to why this may be?
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Vidqun
Well, all I know is that I have stopped associating, and there is no change in my situation. Business as usual, and it doesn't bother me at all. Only problem I foresee now is the elder visits to bring me back to the fold. But my question to them will be: Why start now? You had three years to get to know me, and you haven't bothered. Why the sudden interest?
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Miraculous news about my daugher, Ali
by coffee_black init's a little over a year since my daughter was diagnosed with end stage congestive heart failure due to a virus.
her dr. was talking heart transplant then.. i almost lost her 3 times over the past year due to complications.
2011 was a tough year to put it mildly.
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Vidqun
It's wonderful. A lesson for all of us to fix our diet. Shows you what proper eating habits can accomplish.
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92
Pre-emptive shunning - a growing reality
by cedars ini'm scanning through some of the results from the 2012 jw survey as they're coming in.. the most populous of the six voting categories with 76 voters so far is my own category, for those who are inactive, or "faded/fading" (not disfellowshipped or da'd, but no longer reporting time on the ministry).. one statistic already leaping out at me surrounds the question "do you experience 'pre-emptive shunning' from active witnesses, who view you as 'bad association'?
" of the 74 who voted on this so far, 76% have answered "yes" to this question.. it's early days, and obviously i will have a clearer picture of the extent of the problem once the survey closes at the end of the year.
however, the results already in suggest that pre-emptive shunning is widespread among inactive ones, despite this not being an "official" policy of the society.. i was interested in your opinions as to why this may be?
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Vidqun
Cedars, I have been the subject of pre-emptive shunning, so I have looked into it. You might call it freedom of association (but a bad form of it). They base their view on 2 Tim. 2:20, 21 (NW):
20 Now in a large house there are vessels not only of gold and silver but also of wood and earthenware, and some for an honorable purpose but others for a purpose lacking honor.
21 If, therefore, anyone keeps clear of the latter ones, he will be a vessel for an honorable purpose, sanctified, useful to his owner, prepared for every good work.
So, one should steer clear of "apostates," "free thinkers," yes and the weak, for these might drag you down to their level, if you associate with them on a social level. I disagree with those that say it is a non-official teaching. It's official allright, and it crops up frequently in the literature.
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What did you/do you think about at the meetings?
by tornapart inif you still go or remember the days when you did what did you think about while you were sat there?
obviously it's very difficult to concentrate.. lol..assemblies i find impossible and have often drifted off to sleep, listening to the endless same old stuff.. .
and i want some funny stories.. .
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Vidqun
I took a Classical Hebrew course, and read my Bible in Hebrew. It irritated the hell out the elders.
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Was Your Experience As A Jehovah's Witness Good In Any Way?
by minimus ini was raised as a witness.
i could've been raised as a catholic but my mother's side of the family came into "the truth" when i was an infant.
i do believe that because of my upbringing, i was a more honest person.
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Vidqun
I still believe in Jehovah God and the Bible, but not the interpretation of JWs. I was happy to belong to a group, comfortable in the herd (or is that circling wagons). But then I saw a documentary on lemmings, how the leaders took them over a cliff into the sea. Then I started becoming very uncomfortable, being part of the herd (the UN-NGO scandal had a lot to do with it). I believe each must work out his own salvation. As individuals we will have to render an account to God (Rom. 14:12; Phil. 2:12).
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New one
by freshcrepes ini've been lurking on this forum for over a year, and i thought i'd say a quick hello.. .
i was raised as a jehovah's witness and managed to endure past the encouragement that one receives from age 16 onwards about what is holding me back, and never got baptised.
i figured that making one of the most important decisions of my life requires a lot more thought than people seemed to be giving it, and shouldn't be based on emotion as is quite common.. .
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Vidqun
Welcome! I agree with the rest. Broaden your horizons, develop your brain even more.
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Vidqun
IE 9. Check whether your Compatibility View is on (top, left hand corner).
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The Purpose Of The Circuit Assembly, Is To Show How Much More We Can Do, or How Little We Do?
by Bubblegum Apotheosis inwhy is it, the c.a.s are not upbuiling, and the whole bible is replaced with, "how to do more for jehovah!
" talks.
the "two day assemblies" are no.
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Vidqun
I agree with Breakfast, CAs are not upbuilding at all. I usually feel bad and is in a foul mood after an assembly. Often it is because of their negative attitude towards secular education. No, there is definitely something wrong there.