Posts by NeonMadman

36

Asked my christian co-workers.....

by DS211 in

NeonMadman

But Neon if a christian believes that his or her god made all the flora and fauna why would they not be interested in the details to the point of obsession?

No offense intended, cofty, but that strikes me as a silly question. Can I enjoy driving my car through the countryside without being able to explain every detail of how an internal combustion engine works? In much the same way, it is entirely possible to appreciate both the creation and the Creator without having a detailed knowledge of biology, geology, astronomy, physics, etc. Different people have different interests, and there is only so much time in life to spend looking into interesting things.

It is my experience that conservative christian belief and interest in the discoveries of science are inversely proportionate.

Then your experience is lacking, or else you have bought into the "new atheist" party line. Ever heard of Copernicus? He was a priest. William of Ockham, Tycho Brahe, Francis Bacon, Johannes Kepler, Galileo, Descartes, Blaise Pascal, Isaac Newton, Daniel Bernouli, Luigi Galvani, James Clerk Maxwell, Louis Pasteur, Lord Kelvin, Marconi, George Washington Carver, Max Planck, Werner Heisenberg, Werhner von Braun, and many more. They were all Christians, and don't seem to have been hampered in the least by their Christian faith with regard to "interest in the discoveries of science."

Really, it's only within the last generation or so that atheists seem to have become dominant in the sciences. Historically, the majority of great thinkers in Western culture were at least religious people and the majority of these were Christians. It was specifically the motivation you advocate that drove many of them - a desire to more fully understand the Creation and Creator. This, not atheism, has been the impetus for the growth of science and reason over many hundreds, even thousands of years. Even today, there are many Christians in the sciences holding advanced degrees and making significant contributions. Unfortunately, the new dominance of atheists makes it more difficult for them to function in academic settings, since atheists don't generally (or historically) extend the same tolerance toward those of faith that they expect for themselves.

36

Asked my christian co-workers.....

by DS211 in

NeonMadman

For many Bible-believing Christians, the Bible is sufficient. If it doesn't mention dinosaurs, then they are not an essential of the faith and we don't need to know about them

Which is as concise an answer to, "what's wrong with faith-based thinking?" as it would be possible to imagine.

It kills curiosity and investigation. It crushes a unviverse full of wonders into the confines of a Bronze Age book written by ignorant pre-scientific nomads.

Perhaps I expressed that thought badly. I didn't mean to imply that scientific matters, or for that matter, other endeavors of human knowledge, are of no use or interest to persons who believe the Bible. What I meant to say is that they are not essentials of the faith. They are not, from a biblical standpoint, necessary for salvation. There are many things that are true that have no bearing on one's spiritual condition. Dinosaurs, dendrites, dead empires and double-entry accounting are all valid fields of study, but are not spiritual in nature. There is no need at all for belief in the Bible to "Kill curiosity and investigation," but there is a distinction as to what is needed in a spiritual sense. Dinosaurs may be fascinating to some people; I can take them or leave them as an item of study. Stuff that fascinates me might bore you.

Remember that I made this remark in the context of responding to your earlier question, " Why do fundies have so little interest in the things they believe their god made?" One would think that a person who so passionately advocates reason might avoid the use of such an obvious hasty generalization. The premise behind the question is simply not true. First, not all "fundies" are the same, and second, many whom I am sure you would class as "fundies" are simply fascinated by various aspects of nature and the universe, and study them intensely.

Now here's the difference with JWs. Everything is essential. If the Watchtower tells them that the orange and purple spotted wild beast in Third Hezekiah is a symbol of the 2004 Olympics, they have to believe it, under penalty of disfellowshipping. If the Society says that leprechauns exist - even though the Bible says no such thing and, in fact, never mentions leprechauns - JWs will be required to accept it and will attempt to defend it to the death. That's how this relates to the original question of this thread. The Bible doesn't say what the animals ate or whether they had meat to eat before the flood. But the JWs have to have an "official" answer to everything, and once that answer is rendered, however speculative, they will stick by it. Which actually makes them more vulnerable intellectually than if they simply regarded that as an unnecessary speculative concept. That was my point. Hopefully I've made myself a bit clearer now.

36

Asked my christian co-workers.....

by DS211 in

NeonMadman

Why do fundies have so little interest in the things they believe their god made?

You seem to be operating on the JW-style assumption that every question needs to have a concise answer. For JWs, the ultimate source of doctrine is not the Bible, but the Watchtower's teachings. For many Bible-believing Christians, the Bible is sufficient. If it doesn't mention dinosaurs, then they are not an essential of the faith and we don't need to know about them. We are free to speculate, of course, as long as speculation does not become hard and fast doctrine. Unfortunately, that's exactly what happens with the JWs. The Governing Body's speculations about things not specifically mentioned in the Bible become doctrine, and then other doctrines are built on top of those speculations. Now, this does create the illusion of JWs having the truth, since they have a "Bible-based answer" for every question you can ask or imagine. The problem is that many of their "Bible-based answers" have nothing to do with the Bible, but are merely the imaginings of GB members, enforced as dogma upon the rank and file. Worse, since the Bible and the Watchtower are indistinguishable in the minds of many JWs, these speculative answers become hills to die on and must be defended if questioned. When the JW comes to realize that the Watchtower's speculations are simply rubbish, they discard the whole idea of God and the Bible along with the Watchtower. I'm convinced that this is a major reason why there is so much atheism among ex-JWs.

21

UFO's

by zeb in

i have seen ufo's in broad daylight.. what is the party line of the wts on ufo's?please.

anyone else seen these things?.

NeonMadman

A frisbee?

34

1973 "Divine Victory" International Assemblies

by Bungi Bill in

jw
friends

how many here attended the "divine victory" international assembly that was held 12- 16 december in christchurch, new zealand?.

the venue was lancaster park.

if the truth be known, that stadium was probably a casualty of the february 2011 earthquake?.

NeonMadman

I attended at Tiger Stadium in Detroit, which I believe was the first in the series. It was one of the most crowded assemblies I ever went to.

19

Question for believers.

by zound in

jw
friends

this thread is not to try and prove which position is true or false, but i wanted to ask a question to believers.

i'll prelude the question with some examples.. jw's think that their message is true and benificial to others - therefore they knock on doors and informal witness etc.

i think it's safe to say most on this forum agree it is not true and it is in fact harmful (particularly to children) perhaps harmful in ways that the jw is not in a position to appreciate because of his/her warped perspective on things.. on the other hand - if their message was true, and armageddon is coming etc etc, then you could argue that them preaching this stuff is not harmful (actually its morally ambiguous but nevermind that for the time being) because the ends justifies the means - it all comes out in the wash etc.. in turn if mormons message was false then we can agree they are misleading, lying, wasting peoples precious time and lives and ultimately harming children and susceptable people by spreading it.

NeonMadman

To believers. Would you agree with the proposition that if the beliefs you teach to others (even if it's very little and informal) are true... then no problem. But if they turn out to be NOT true, do you agree that you are harming people in some way by spreading these mistruths?

Seems to me that it would be even more apt to ask this question of non-believers, at least those who are evangelistic in their unbelief. You might argue that, if theistic beliefs are untrue and one mistakenly embraces them he/she is missing out on certain aspects of life that he/she might otherwise have enjoyed (though the "benefits" of some of these activities are questionable at best). Put simply, you might miss out on some fun in this life by being a believer.

But if theistic belief turns out to be true, and non-believers have convinced others NOT to believe, then the consequences are essentially negative, infinite and eternal. Whether one believes in an eternal hell, or simply annihilation, the unbeliever has missed out on an eternal, blissful existence, if theism is true. That strikes me as a much more serious consequence than missing a few parties.

29

Did Jehovah's Witnesses Plagiarize HWA's False Prophecy Of 1975?

by Bangalore in

did jehovah's witnesses plagiarize hwa's false prophecy of 1975?.

http://livingarmstrongism.blogspot.com/2013/10/did-jehovahs-witnesses-plagiarize-hwas.html.

bangalore.

NeonMadman

So did H.W.Armstrong predict the earth/world was going to be destroyed or not , or was it just ambiguous wording that people have misconstrued .

1975 in Prophecy, by HWA:

http://www.herbert-armstrong.org/Books%20&%20Booklets/1975%20in%20Prophecy%20 (1956).pdf

Can't get this to hyperlink for some reason - the system won't pick up the 1956 in parentheses, but it's an essential part of the URL. Try copying and pasting rather than clicking the hyperlink.

30

New! Borg instruct to report tract placements

by pixel in

there's a new letter coming up next week to be read instructing the publishers to begin reporting the number of tracts placed in the ministry, including copies of kingdom news 38, annual invitations, district handbills and other tracts.

lol.

see, the borg is allegue about numbers, and why on earth do they tell you to start counting placement in the middle of a campaing, like the one they are doing now witk kingdom news 38 and not before it started??.

NeonMadman

I thought we had always counted the tracts placed specifically in Kingdom News campaigns - not regular tracts, though. Wouldn't suprise me if they now wanted to count all tracts, as the focus does seem to have shifted to cheaper literature items for placement since the "complete donation arrangement" took effect.

29

Did Jehovah's Witnesses Plagiarize HWA's False Prophecy Of 1975?

by Bangalore in

did jehovah's witnesses plagiarize hwa's false prophecy of 1975?.

http://livingarmstrongism.blogspot.com/2013/10/did-jehovahs-witnesses-plagiarize-hwas.html.

bangalore.

NeonMadman

The publications, for instance, mentioned it is not known when Eve was created, and it may have been years after Adam was created, and the date when the first sin occurred is also not known. So the implication was, as far as I can see, that the end was unknown, and most likely NOT come in 1975. Although, one WT publication SPECULATED, that it MAY not be far off from 1975. However, a lot of stress was put on Jesus words "that no man knows the hour", although the sign of the times indicated it was near. The WT never stated the end WILL come in 1975, not even the book used to introduce potential new Christians to bhe basic bible truth mention it.

Yes, they hedged their bets quite nicely by putting cautionary statements such as you describe into the literature. On the other hand, other statements were much more telling:

Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world's end.

Kingdom Ministry, May 1974, p. 3

Fifteen years from 1960 brings us to 1975. He predicted that by 1975 this world would be too dangerous! Interestingly, this date is also the one indicated by the most reliable Bible research as marking the end of 6,000 years of rebellion of men and demons against God.

Awake! January 8, 1968, p. 19

If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. Of the generation that observed the beginning of the 'last days' in 1914, Jesus foretold: 'This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.' Therefore, as a young person, you will never fulfill any career that this system offers.

Awake! magazine, May 22, 1969, p. 15

Telling people that the time is so short (in 1974) that selling their homes and property is a "fine way to spend the short time remaining" doesn't strike me as a very cautionary statement. Do you think they meant to imply that people's homes and property should bring them enough income to last them another 38 years (or more)? There were serious consequences to anyone who followed the Watchtower's advice, based on a prediction that you claim they never made.

Likewise, young people were told in 1969 (the year I graduated high school) that they would "never grow old in this present system of things" and that they would "never fulfill any career that this syetem offers." These statements were blatantly false. That magazine came out weeks before my high school graduation, and I am now 61 years old. I think I could have had a decent career by now, had I not paid attention to the Watchtower's advice. Instead of going to college, I aimed at pioneering, and have, as a result, worked much harder at jobs I've enjoyed much less than could have been the case. Another life messed up by believing the Watchtower.

Over 40 years later, the Watchtower is still telling young people the same things. Fortunately, it seems that nowadays, fewer and fewer are believing them, since the majority of JW kids today leave the religion as adults.

12

HELP! Can God SEE the future?? How?? Is this predestination??

by Bloody Hotdogs! in

had a very long and frustrating debate last night.. .

jws like to say that god has the ability to foresee the future, but can chose not to look.

this, they claim, removes the problem of predestination/preordination.. .

NeonMadman

I think the JW position is a rather confused mish-mash of all three options that you mention. God has the "super-power" of seeing the future (which is distinct from the God of mainstream Christianity who knows all things by his nature), much as Clark Kent has the super-power of seeing through solid objects with his X-Ray Vision. Just as Clark can choose not to look through the wall into the girls' locker room, God can choose not to see the outcomes that will be brought about by the free acts of human beings (as if there were such libertarian freedom). This is a form of a doctrine that pops up here and there in evangelicalism called "Open Theism." For this reason, Jehovah doesn't know who will be saved and who will not, because he has chosen not to look. JWs have a God who can be surprised. So when God said (after Abraham as much as offered up Isaac), "NOW I KNOW that you are God-fearing, in that you have not withheld your only son from me," it was because God really didn't know what Abraham would do (Gen. 22:12). This does create a bit of a conundrum for the JW, however, since, if taken as anything other than an anthropomorphism, this verse not only implies that God does not know the future, but doesn't even know the present, since the implication is that he was unaware of the present condition of Abraham's heart.

However, in JWism, Jehovah can also maneuver the events of the future if he wishes to in order to accomplish his purpose. Pharoah, Nebuchadnezzar and Cyrus were all people that God specifically said would carry out certain actions relative to Israel. Did he thus deprive them of their free will? What if Cyrus didn't want to conquer Babylon? How would the Israelites been freed from bondage? God had specifically named Cyrus in Isaiah's prophecy, well before Cyrus' birth. What happened to Cyrus' free will? Apparently Jehovah overrides the free will of some people in order to carry out his purposes. Seems rather unfair, when viewed through a JW lens. The image one actually gets from JW literature, though, is of God as a master chess player who, while not directly overriding free will, maneuvers external factors to the individual in order to cause him to behave in the desired manner.

In short, I think you are trying to make sense of a JW doctrine the implications of which have never been fully explained by the organization, that is not understood by JWs themselves, and that is internally inconsistent.