Posts by ScenicViewer

123

JW FAMOUS CLICHE SAYINGS

by strymeckirules in

what saying made it all around the country?.

the ones that were passed around, word of mouth.. for example.

"donations basis proves jehovah is behind the work!".

ScenicViewer

"The very worst Jehovah's Witness is better than the very best worldly person."

Even when I was active that one made me feel a little nauseated.

24

A few verbatim quotes from Anthony Morris' talk during the Branch Visit.

by Open mind in

haven't contributed much here in a while.

it's not modest and it's certainly not sound of mind.

you be spiritual man enough to tell these young fellows 'you don't go out in the ministry looking like that.

ScenicViewer

(At 10:08)
"Have you ever visited Bethel?"

(Makes a comment re: how expensive it can be and would require planning.)

"If you haven't, my next question is, but have you been able to find a way to get a trip to a well-known amusement park?" (Long pause) "Explain that to God."

To Anthony Morris III:

First, I'll need to see in the Bible where visiting world headquarters, the big place where you live, is a requirement for life, a requirement of true religion, a requirement laid upon us by God.

It's not in the Bible? Then you are in violation of Rev 21:18, which says to not add anything to, or take anything from, His word. And if you do 'God will add to you the plagues that are written in this scroll...' That means death to you, Anthony Morris III, for making up artificial rules, imposing them on others, and pretending they are God's rules.

Explain that one to God. And to your 'big brother.'

300

ALERT: NEW LAWSUIT settlement - $13 MILLION

by Watchtower-Free in

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/135m-awarded-to-bible-teacher-gonzalo-campos-alleged-abuse-victim-jose-lopez-281031832.html.

(published thursday, oct 30, 2014).

thursday, oct 30, 2014 updated at 11:58 pm pdt.

ScenicViewer

Metatron: I can remember the Watchtower's reputation for solid legal work that they were proud of, in creating a 'firewall' of legal precedents to protect the organization.

I remember too, and came to believe Watchtower's legal dept was unbeatable.

In the old days Watchtower won many cases, even before the Supreme Court of the United States. However those were primarily religious freedom cases; you can't be forced to salute the flag, you can't get fired if you don't vote, military service and other neutrality issues.

These cases today have nothing to do with religious freedoms, but are about human rights and covering up crimes, and Watchtower has positioned itself on the wrong side. They did good work in the old days when religious rights needed to be nailed down, but should be made to pay and be exposed for what they are doing today.

300

ALERT: NEW LAWSUIT settlement - $13 MILLION

by Watchtower-Free in

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/135m-awarded-to-bible-teacher-gonzalo-campos-alleged-abuse-victim-jose-lopez-281031832.html.

(published thursday, oct 30, 2014).

thursday, oct 30, 2014 updated at 11:58 pm pdt.

ScenicViewer

Sir82: Maybe they're thinking "We're going to lose no matter what. But this way, we can spin it to the R&F JWs that it is 'persecution', that 'Satan is controlling the courts - why look - they won't even let us present our case! how unfair!'

I believe you are right. They will play the persecution card, explaining how much the world hates them, and most JWs will fall for it.

Also, there is no way they can let a Governing Body member get on the stand. He would be demolished, and the end result would likely be worse than having a default judgment against them.

300

ALERT: NEW LAWSUIT settlement - $13 MILLION

by Watchtower-Free in

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/135m-awarded-to-bible-teacher-gonzalo-campos-alleged-abuse-victim-jose-lopez-281031832.html.

(published thursday, oct 30, 2014).

thursday, oct 30, 2014 updated at 11:58 pm pdt.

ScenicViewer

Violia: If the wts does indeed have a LIST... etc. I know they do.

The list you are referring to might be the subject of one of the court orders that Watchtower refused to comply with. Read below.

Chaserious: Also, I have not reviewed every document and listened to every podcast, but it appears any opinions by the appeals courts have not been made available. It is possible- and correct me if I am wrong - that the appeals courts didn't rule on the merits of the discovery orders, e.g. found that it was the correct decision that the documents had to be turned over/ depositions had to be taken, but only held that it wasn't the appropriate time to appeal. Usually, interlocutory appeals are disfavored and you have to wait until final judgment to appeal.

The first reference I saw to the two appeals by Watchtower was in an online newspaper, the U-T San Diego. The quote is near the end of the second page, and this is the link to the article, http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/oct/31/jehovahs-witness-sex-abuse-judgment-lopez/

“Both the state appeals court and state Supreme Court upheld Judge Lewis’ rulings on the court orders, which the Watchtower continued to rebuff.”

This quote makes it appear that it was the Judge’s ruling that was upheld. If that’s really true, it was the merits of the appeal that mattered, not the timing of it. Of course news papers can get details wrong, but there is more.

The second time I heard of the appeals was in an interview with the plantiff’s attorney, Irwin Zalkin, broadcast on Jwpodcast.org. The pod cast is over an hour and 20 min long, but the interview is only about 30 or 40 minutes. It begins at the 11min 30sec mark. After you start the player you can move your cursor along the progress bar to any time you like and click it to skip ahead. http://www.jwpodcast.org/2014/11/03/s01e01-irwin-zalkin/

Here is my transcription of the interview beginning with the question of why Watchtower was barred from participating in the trial. Most of this doesn’t directly address the appeals, but is interesting reading because it addresses the issues that Watchtower didn’t want to comply with. The appeals part is highlighted so you can scan right to it.

(23:44)
Question: In the press statement you said that Watchtower breached a court order which they couldn’t, they were barred from court proceedings, so can you tell us how that came about? What was actually asked from the Watchtower and how long did this go on for?

Zalkin: Sure. In the process of litigation, while we were embroiled in litigation with these guys, in 1997, specifically March of 1997, Watchtower had distributed a letter to all bodies of elders within the United States, some 14,000 congregations, and in that letter they wanted all this information about known child molestors within the organization. They were specifically concerned about their potential for legal action against them and they were trying to gather up all that they could, and they had a whole laundry list of questions and information that they wanted, and instructions on how that information was to be sent to Watchtower, in a special blue envelope, under seal, marked confidential, that sort of thing.

And then again in July of 1998 they sent a follow up letter saying, ‘You know we haven’t been getting all of this from everybody, we’re instructing you to give this to us.’ And they also answered some questions regarding their, the information that hadn’t been coming to them.

We requested the production of all that information because they argued in all of our cases that “You know we just didn’t know then what we know now about child sexual abuse. So what are red flags today were not red flags back then. And we didn’t understand, we didn’t quite get it at that time.”

And, we felt that evidence that they had amassed was highly relevant to show the kind of institutional knowledge that they did have back then. So we, through our process, it’s essentially similar to a subpoena, we subpoenaed that information. They refused to produce that. We made a motion to the court to compel them to produce it. We went through a referee hearing on it; the referee agreed with us. The judge then affirmed the referee’s order, uh, and issued her own order. They refused the trial judge’s order. It went to the court of appeal. They refused the court of appeal order. It went to the California Supreme Court. They refused the California Supreme Court order.

At the same time we also demanded to take the deposition of Gerrit Loesch, who is the longest serving member of the Governing Body. And based on the documents and the evidence the Governing Body is the managing agent. It controls all the activities of Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world, including in the United States, and it makes policies, especially sexual abuse policies.

So we argued to the court that it was important for us to get the testimony of Gerritt Loesch to talk about how they came up with their policies, and what their policies were, and the impact of those policies. The court agreed and ordered that they produce Mr. Loesch for a deposition. They refused. They took the matter up to the court of appeal. The court of appeal agreed he should be produced. They refused. They took the matter up to the California Supreme Court. The California Supreme Court agreed that Mr. Loesch should be produced. They refused.

Well you cannot refuse to participate in the process when it suits you, and participate in the process [garbled] when it suits you or doesn’t suit you. In other words if you’re not going to play by the rules then don’t whine if you don’t get to play in the game.

(28.30)
Zalkin continues: In 35 years of being a trial lawyer I have never, ever had a circumstance where a party refused, just simply refused to obey a court order…

Question: [Interupting] Not even the Catholic Church?

Zalkin: Not even the Catholic Church. Whenever they appealed, they went to the Supreme Court on issues but when ultimately they lost they produced [pause] so [pause] these guys feel that they are above the law, they feel that they don’t have to comply with the court orders, that they live in some parallel universe. The court disagreed, and one of the sanctions that’s available under those circumstances is to terminate their defense, and to enter what’s called a default judgment against them. And that’s exactly what she did. She entered a default judgment against them. And then we had to spend 6 days essentially putting on a trial proving our allegations to her and the damages that Jose has suffered. And at the end of that 6 day trial she issued a judgment for 13 and ½ million dollars, 10 ½ million of which are designated as punitive damages, damages to punish Watchtower for it’s reckless and reprehensible conduct.

(42:54)

Question: In the statement from the watchtower they said they would definitely be going ahead with the appeal, so what kind of chances do they have with an appeal?

Zalkin: I think it’s going to be pretty hard to go back to the same courts that didn’t [background laughing and an inaudible word or two] the court's order in the first place, to now come back and say the judge abused her discretion. It’s almost comical but that’s what they’ll do. They will do that, they have the right to appeal, and the will get their day in court on an appeal…

[END of interview quotes]

I don't believe anyone here has suggested that Watchtower won't have an appeal, or that they will lose the appeal. The truth is you never know what a court will say until a court says it. But Zalkin's case is strong, and there is no particular reason to believe he will lose either. The real celebrating will happen when the case is finished, if Watchtower loses.

As a side point, he mentioned there are 20 or more cases that his firm is handling against Watchtower. A few of them are in Conneticut, Vermont, Ohio, New Mexico, currently filing one in Oregon, and several more in California. Most of these are milti-victim cases.

He mentioned there are many in the pipeline that will be coming out as well. I'm not sure if these in the pipeline are part of the 20+ or if they are additional.

At any rate, Watchtower is going to have it's hands full. He said the current case, along with the Conti case, is the tip of the iceburg.

300

ALERT: NEW LAWSUIT settlement - $13 MILLION

by Watchtower-Free in

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/135m-awarded-to-bible-teacher-gonzalo-campos-alleged-abuse-victim-jose-lopez-281031832.html.

(published thursday, oct 30, 2014).

thursday, oct 30, 2014 updated at 11:58 pm pdt.

ScenicViewer

BOTR: Why do you think appeals courts exist?

I suppose you are saying 'It isn't over til it's over' so don't get all excited until all avenues of appeal are exhausted. Is that it?

But if you had read even the basics of this case you would know that the appeals court and the California Supreme Court have already been appealed to in this case, twice each, by Watchtower attorneys, who lost all appeals

The Judge issued an order for Watchtower to turn over certain documents. Even after losing the appeals Watchtower still refused to comply with the Judge's order.

Then the Judge issued another order for Watchtower to produce Gerrit Loesch (GB) to testify. Again Watchtower attorneys refused to comply even after losing both appeals. They were stubborn. Very stubborn.

In the end the Judge ruled that Watchtower was in violation for not complying with her orders and disallowed Watchtower attorneys from putting on a defense. They forfeited that right by refusing to comply with the court.

(Irwin Zalkin, attorney for the plantiff, said it was the only time in his 35 year career that he had seen someone refuse to comply with a court order after losing two appeals. In other cases even the Catholic Church complied eventually.)

You say there was no proof, but the plantiff put on it's case over a 6 day period, and proved it's case to the Judge, which is all that matters.

Now Watchtower can appeal the verdict, but what chance do you think they stand appealing to the same courts whose previous rulings they refused to comply with? Watchtower is making a terrible name for itself in court.

I am fed up with the mentality on this site.

Have a look in the nearest mirror.

300

ALERT: NEW LAWSUIT settlement - $13 MILLION

by Watchtower-Free in

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/135m-awarded-to-bible-teacher-gonzalo-campos-alleged-abuse-victim-jose-lopez-281031832.html.

(published thursday, oct 30, 2014).

thursday, oct 30, 2014 updated at 11:58 pm pdt.

ScenicViewer

BOTR, are you sure you are a lawyer? I ask because lawyers are educated people whose job is to communicate clearly, but your posts are often hard to follow because of garbled language and run-on sentences that lack good punctuation.

Sometimes you use a wrong word that is more than just a typo or a simple misspelling.

Perry [Mason] one every case he handled.

Do you not know the difference between one and won?

43

Apostate with the HIGHEST ENTERTAINMENT VALUE has to be this lady

by Terry in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swgzcvh3rns&feature=youtu.be.

she is magnificent!

katie kitten.

ScenicViewer

Move over Simon and Garfunkel. In this video she sings "50 Ways To Leave Jay Dubyas"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5a5tGhyvwsE

4

News Release from SNAP's David Clohessy about $13.5 million penalty

by AndersonsInfo in

jehovahs witness hq must pay abuse victim $13.5 million penalty; snap responds.

for immediate release: friday, oct. 31. .

statement by david clohessy of st. louis, director of snap, the survivors network of those abused by priests (314 566 9790, [email protected]).

ScenicViewer

the requested amount is too high.. Look at the Conti Case..

In the Conti case the amount of punative damages was $21,000,000.00, which was set by a jury. A judge later reduced it.

However, in this case the amount of punative damages is only $10,000,000.00, which was set by a judge. It's unlikely it will be reduced by much, if any.

300

ALERT: NEW LAWSUIT settlement - $13 MILLION

by Watchtower-Free in

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/135m-awarded-to-bible-teacher-gonzalo-campos-alleged-abuse-victim-jose-lopez-281031832.html.

(published thursday, oct 30, 2014).

thursday, oct 30, 2014 updated at 11:58 pm pdt.

ScenicViewer

BOTR: No legal case is ever presented accurately on this forum.

Really? Not ever? That's kind of a sweeping statement. Often court documents are presented here for download; there must be some accuracy in those.

Cofty: How much would you love to see a member of the GB on the stand being grilled by a tenacious lawyer?

Wouldn't that be delicious, but he probably wouldn't say much, if anything. Sudden lapse of memory. It would probably be much worse for Watchtower if he actually talked.

That would be satisfying too because it would show how inept the GB really is.