Posts by scotoma

You don’t always have to wait for time to disprove an
interpretation of prophecy. Whether or not there really is any
truth to prophecy, sometimes an interpretation is totally out of
synchrony with what the actual words of the Bible are saying.
Here is an example which I mentioned I would deal with.

July 15 Watchtower 1981 says:

"Concerning the "king of the north," the prophecy states: "He
will have to come all the way to his end, and there will be no
helper for him." (Dan. 11:45) Moreover, a parallel prophecy
says of the Anglo-American World Power, also pictured by the "king of
the south," that "it will be without hand that he will be broken."-Dan. 8:25.

This expresses the JW notion that the King of the North and
King of the South both are destroyed directly by the army of
faithful Angels led by Jesus at Armageddon. Is that really what
the Bible says?

Look at the last time the King of the South is mentioned in the
Bible.

Daniel 11:40 “And in the time of the end the King of the
South will engage with him (King of the North) in a pushing,
and against Him the King of the North will storm...

The rest of Daniel 11 has only one dominant actor which is the
King of the North which seems to proceed with his plan and
no one is standing in his way. The King of the South is not
mentioned again - ever. If the King of the South was so
important in the pushing and shoving why isn’t he mentioned
as the King of the North expands his aggression to the extent
that he will “actually rule over the hidden treasures of the gold
and the silver and over all the desirable things of Egypt.”

Daniel chapter 11 ends describing the end of the King of the
North: “and he will have to come all the way to his (King of
the North) end, and there will be no helper for him.

OK so we know the King of the North has some kind of
sudden end. We assume it is by supernatural means similar to
the stone that is cut out of the mountain, not by human hands,
and which struck the iron/clay feet and brought the whole
sequence of human rule to an end.

Whatever happened to the King of the South? Since nothing
is heard from the King of the South after the King of the North
goes forth in a great rage it is more than likely that it was
destroyed by the “human hands” of the King of the North. How
else can you account for the exit of the King of the South from
this final scenario?

The Watchtower believes that the King of the South won’t be
destroyed by the King of the North because they assert that the
King of fierce countenance that is destroyed without hands at
Dan. 8: 25 is the Anglo-American combine. They teach that
the United States profaned the sanctuary.

When you compare the description of the Little Horn in
Daniel 8 it fits nicely with the description of the King of the
North and the beast of Rev.13

Little Horn Daniel 8:25 “Against the Prince of princes he will
stand up”
King of North Daniel 11:36 “Against the God of gods he will
speak marvelous things.
Wild Beast Rev. 13:6 “And it opened its mouth in
blasphemies against God to blaspheme his name and
residence.

Little Horn Daniel 8:24 “And in a wonderful way he will
cause ruin and he will certainly prove successful and do
effectively. And he will certainly bring mighty ones to ruin.”
King of North Dan. 11:39 “And he will act effectively against
the most fortified strongholds”
Wild Beast Rev. 13:4 “Who is like the wild beast and who
can do battle with it?”

Little Horn Dan. 8:11 “and from him the CONSTANT
FEATURE was taken away and the established place of his
sanctuary was thrown down... and it kept throwing truth to the
earth, and it acted and had success.”
King of the North Daniel 11:36 “and he will certainly prove
successful until the DENUNCIATION will have come to a
finish.
Wild Beast Rev.13:7 “And there was granted it to wage war
with the holy ones... And all those who dwell on the earth will
worship it.”

The little horn parallels the King of the North - NOT the King
of the South. Therefore the Watchtower is erroneously
assuming that the King of the South isn’t destroyed by the
King of the North. The King of the South is off the scene by
the time the King of the North is destroyed without hand.

This re-orientation presents further problems for JW
interpretation. If the King of the North is the Wild Beast in
Revelation then where is the King of the South in Revelation?
What is Babylon the Great? Could it be that the great Harlot
that keeps the worlds economy going due to her craving of
luxury and that has hegemony over the Kings of the Earth is
the King of the South/USA? If so God’s people are told to get
out of her. If that is the case why would Jehovah get them
involved in a 4 year intensive construction project that would
take YEARS of use to justify the huge investment in man-
power and money.

Maybe they are building their own Magic Kingdom that will
survive while everything else around them crumbles.

28

JW's Never Closed the Door On A Russian King of the North

by scotoma in

jw
friends

king of the north.

union, the "king of the south" can be none other than the rival non-communist bloc, under the .

so who is the king of the north now?

scotoma

Respectful,

The biggest mistake the Watchtower has made is due to their bias from having their headquarters in the USA.

They are stuck on hanging the Anglo-American label as a place marker on every convenient prophetic hook.

Clearly there are only four metals in the dream image.

Gold = Babylon
Silver = Persia
Copper = Greece
Iron = Rome.

The strength of Rome was pictured as extending all the way to the point where the Kingdom of
the Heavens brings an end to these world powers.

The Watchtower likes to believe that Britain and America are the continuation of the Roman
empire.

History indicates something quite different. Britain may have been a Roman colony but it was
never the ruling center of the Roman empire.

The ruling center of the Roman empire shifted to the Eastern, richest and most populous part of
the Roman empire. The Byzantine empire was the real successor to Rome and continued as such
until 1476, almost a millennium after the fall of Rome .

Russia claims it is the “Third Rome”. The Russian flag with it’s double headed eagle facing East
and West was also the emblem of the Byzantine empire. It is worthwhile to read about the
concept of the “Third Rome” and Russia’s historical link to that idea. Look up Third Rome on the
internet. The Babylon book published by the Watchtower in 1963 has a section devoted to the
Third Rome and Russian Orthodoxy but they never jumped on the significance of the Third Rome

In Russia you have the most significant features of the feet of Daniel’s dream image.

Russia is described by scholars as an Ethnofederation. Look up “ethnoferalism and think CLAY).
It is made up of many distinct nations and language groups. They are held together loosely by
force of arms (Iron). Look up Ethnic Groups in Russia on Wikipedia. There are 185 listed. This
is why Russia beat up Chechnya. They are fighting against disintegration. Without Ukraine
Russia will likely disintegrate completely. They will lose any chance of building a strong central
power. This is why the situation in Ukraine is do or die. The principle route for invading Russia
is the flat plains of Ukraine. Hitler and Napoleon took that route.

28

JW's Never Closed the Door On A Russian King of the North

by scotoma in

jw
friends

king of the north.

union, the "king of the south" can be none other than the rival non-communist bloc, under the .

so who is the king of the north now?

scotoma

There is an attitude of observers of the JW world that the org closed the door on Russia as the
King of the North. I’ve also had that attitude. There is the idea that, now, with Russia, once
again asserting itself against domination by the West that the Watchtower has been caught flat-
footed. But have they? The facts in print indicate that this time they left themselves a little
wiggle-room.

Their interpretation prior to the fall of the Soviet Union was quite clear and dogmatic. The
Watchtower carried a series of articles on Daniel that were derived from the 1958 book “Your
Will Be Done On Earth”. This series ran from November 1958 to June 1960.

The Watchtower Part 30 paragraphs 26, 27

The Germanic king of the north as a rival of the seventh world power, the Anglo-American world power, no longer existed. A new politically strong power must step into his shoes, that the rivalry between the two kings for world domination might go on to a final decision or a draw, a standstill.

27 Who could do so? Who did? Events quickly revealed—the Soviet Union, the Communist
power that, since it seized power in Russia in 1917, has held world domination as its aim to this
day.

In 1981 the story remained the same: Watchtower July 15 Pages 5-7

The Power Struggle-What Outcome?

There can be no doubt that the modern-day "king of the north" is the Communist bloc, headed by
the Soviet Union. Since the modern "king of the north" is the Communist bloc, led by the Soviet
Union, the "king of the south" can be none other than the rival non-Communist bloc, under the
leadership of the United States. Concerning these "kings," the prophecy of Daniel goes on to say:
"And in the time of the end the king of the south will engage with him [the king of the north] in a
pushing."-Dan. 11:40. Soviet reactions to the tough line recently adopted by the "king of the
south" show that the "king of the north" does not intend to be ridden over roughshod. Since
World War II, the Soviet Union has been "thrusting out his hand" to grab control over various
"lands" and "hidden treasures," including oil.

Whatever the extent of the "pushing" by the "king of the south" may be, and whether the "king of
the north" literally 'floods over' by invading other lands or not, one thing is certain: According to
Daniel's prophecy, neither "king" will achieve a decisive victory over the other. Concerning the
"king of the north," the prophecy states: "He will have to come all the way to his end, and there
will be no helper for him." (Dan. 11:45) Moreover, a parallel prophecy says of the
Anglo-American World Power, also pictured by the "king of the south," that "it will be without
hand that he will be broken."-Dan. 8:25. (This is a bizarre interpretation arbitrarily imposed on
Dan. 8:25 under one of their favorite tools - Parallelism - more about this later)

So it is clear that they dogmatically insist that at that particular time the shifting identity of the
King of the North pointed to the Soviet Union.

Ooops. By 1993 the Soviet Union completely disappeared. More on this amazing event later.
The thing that is unusual is JW’s never anticipated this event. Let’s see how they dealt with it.

Watchtower 1993 November/1 p. 21 par. 12 The Final Victory of Michael, the Great Prince
So who is the king of the north now? Is he to be identified with one of the countries that were
part of the old Soviet Union? Or is he changing identity completely, as he has a number of times
before? We cannot say. Who will be the king of the north when Daniel 11:44, 45 is fulfilled?
Will the rivalry between the two kings flare up again? And what of the huge nuclear stockpiles
that still exist in a number of lands? Only time will provide the answers to these questions.

Let’s look at that last sentence again.

“Only time will provide the answers to these questions.”

In the words of Dana Carvey as SNL’s Church Lady “Now isn’t that SPECIAL”

No it’s not special. It is typical of all of JW’s interpretations. Isn’t waiting and watching what
all so-called Christians do? It is clear why the organization condemns speculation. They have
speculated their members right into a frantic depression as they bury each successive generation. .
The only thing left is to say it’s SOON. And that’s what they have been saying. That’s what
Jesus’ followers were saying for a 100 years after his death. The early Church stopped that
nonsense early in the 2000 year epoch that followed..

Back to the wiggle room. JW’s didn’t name a successor to the Soviet Union. They even left it
open to the possibility that Russia as “one of the countries that were part of the old Soviet Union"
could emerge from the collapse.

So, their strategy might now pay off. They will surely jump on current events and give strong
hints that their members should keep an eye on Russia. They might even say that it was a good
thing that they didn’t stick to their old interpretations so that it would allow people in the former
Soviet Union to preach the word without hindrance. It would have surely been self-defeating to
be telling the newly liberated people of Eastern Europe that they are destined to be citizens of the
feared Soviet Union again.

26

What is the purpose of Field Service??

by quellycatface in

jw
friends

the so used to say it was life saving work.i wasn't convinced.it was soul destroying in the area i lived.i didn't want to be so cynical as to think, it was just to gain converts, therefore more money but it certainly looks that way now..

scotoma

Purpose of field service?

I am assuming field service includes ALL forms of outreach - Kiosks, Bus Stops, Street Corner, Door-to-Door, Letter writing, Phone Calling

1. Get new members. (Which is believed to save lives)

2. Publicity. (Attract attention. Put the world on notice.)

3. Build group loyalty.

4. Assess individual zeal for appointment to positions in organization.

3

What exactly is still occupied by Watchtower in Brooklyn

by scotoma in

jw
friends

i saw the video on jw.org that the sacred address of 117 adams street is now empty.

what's left?.

where are the gb?.

scotoma

I saw the video on JW.ORG that the sacred address of 117 Adams Street is now empty.

What's left?

Where are the GB?

Are they located at Patterson?

49

Head covering for women--how did you feel about this? Men? Women?

by humbled in

jw
friends

thinking about how this felt awkward to some of us women when a bible student noticed something was "up" if a baptised brother sat in on a study.

had to reference 1 cor.

11:1-16.. i wonder if this irked any while you were still in?.

scotoma

Good points Village Girl.

I also think Leolia posted something about translations errors in that scripture concerning head coverings.

49

Head covering for women--how did you feel about this? Men? Women?

by humbled in

jw
friends

thinking about how this felt awkward to some of us women when a bible student noticed something was "up" if a baptised brother sat in on a study.

had to reference 1 cor.

11:1-16.. i wonder if this irked any while you were still in?.

scotoma

I hate rituals.

On average men are about 4 inches taller than the average woman.

On average men have more physical strength than the average woman.

On average men have more facial hair than the average woman.

On average men have lower voices than the average non-smoking woman.

Men don't have babies but like to be babied by women.

Why do women need head coverings. It's a carry over from primitive male dominated societies. It's also a way to prevent barbaric men from getting hot and bothered if , god forbid, they see an attractive female face.

God supposedly told the Jews to go through ritual sexual mutilation to show their membership in a racist society. Later he said he really wanted circumcised hearts.

Jesus commanded his apostles to follow the example he set by washing their feet. If women need to keep up the head covering nonsense then there needs to be a foot washing area at the KH.

God told the Jews to sacrifice animals. Later he said he really just wanted obedience.

Aside from the fact that it is ridiclous to believe there is some God dictating through writers with ambiguous credentials, Isn't it time to quit all of this symbolic stuff?

92

Question to atheists: if there is no creator/god---

by prologos in

jw
friends

if you are sure there is no god, do you then believe that we,our minds, are the highest intelligence?

not just of the universe, but the cosmos?.

scotoma

From a personal experience shared by family and neighbors I am positive there are aliens visiting the Earth.

I realize by saying that I jeopardize any claim to rationality in the eyes of skeptics. So what. I didn't ask for my experience but I am content with my judgement and the perspective that experience has given me.

I don't believe there are more intelligent beings than humans. That is not a statement that should be labeled as arrogance. Species succeed when they have enough generalized abilities to adapt to a wide range of environments.

Too much individual intelligence becomes non-adaptive. At a certain point extremely high IQ's handicap a person especially in the area of sociability which impedes cooperation.

Most likely advanced civilizations have arrived at that state through cooperative techniques that evolved through trial and error.

If humans could learn to cooperate and get past the fighting betweens males for access to females they could be capable of amazing things. Even god-like things. Through cooperation humans can match the achievements of any other evolved species that may exist.

After all, look at the cooperation that goes on between the specialization of cells in our own bodies. Think about the amazing symbiosis between the bacterial invader we affectionately call "mitochondria"as if they were just another part of our cells. Humans still haven't learned how to fully exploit human resources. If we can learn to cooperate the door will be open to understanding the genetic aspect of individual talents. There will be no need for crude psychological testing to understand a person's ability. There will be no wasting of human talent and potential with the hit or miss random distribution of people to various occupations. Think of the "genius" of all sorts that go to waste in the billions of people that are working at jobs inappropriate to their unique talents. Imagine a society where everyone has a job that fits their capacity.

Unfortunately, this has been given the name of socialism and is scorned by the libertarian freedom fanatics. Libertarians are usually highly intelligent and they need to recognize that they stand to benefit greatly from a society that is focused on discovering and utilizing peoples assets.

Instead earthlings will continue to use the artifact of struggle for reproductive access (war and strife at all levels) until they destroy themselves or are rescued by intervention from our advanced brothers from other planets or multiverses.

Not in our lifetime! So you just have to make do.

9

Why I feel that worshiping "God" is a waste of time...

by CaptainSchmideo in

jw
friends

have you ever had a so-called friend who never seemed to be around when you really needed his active, participatory help, but was always good enough to show up after the fact, to lend you his "support" after the event?.

maybe he failed to show up when you needed to move furniture.

did he show up afterward, and praise you for the ability to get it done without his help?

scotoma

Nothing fails like prayer