JW's Never Closed the Door On A Russian King of the North

by scotoma 28 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  scotoma

  There is an attitude of observers of the JW world that the org closed the door on Russia as the
  King of the North. I’ve also had that attitude. There is the idea that, now, with Russia, once
  again asserting itself against domination by the West that the Watchtower has been caught flat-
  footed. But have they? The facts in print indicate that this time they left themselves a little
  wiggle-room.

  Their interpretation prior to the fall of the Soviet Union was quite clear and dogmatic. The
  Watchtower carried a series of articles on Daniel that were derived from the 1958 book “Your
  Will Be Done On Earth”. This series ran from November 1958 to June 1960.

  The Watchtower Part 30 paragraphs 26, 27

  The Germanic king of the north as a rival of the seventh world power, the Anglo-American world power, no longer existed. A new politically strong power must step into his shoes, that the rivalry between the two kings for world domination might go on to a final decision or a draw, a standstill.

  27 Who could do so? Who did? Events quickly revealed—the Soviet Union, the Communist
  power that, since it seized power in Russia in 1917, has held world domination as its aim to this
  day.

  In 1981 the story remained the same: Watchtower July 15 Pages 5-7

  The Power Struggle-What Outcome?

  There can be no doubt that the modern-day "king of the north" is the Communist bloc, headed by
  the Soviet Union. Since the modern "king of the north" is the Communist bloc, led by the Soviet
  Union, the "king of the south" can be none other than the rival non-Communist bloc, under the
  leadership of the United States. Concerning these "kings," the prophecy of Daniel goes on to say:
  "And in the time of the end the king of the south will engage with him [the king of the north] in a
  pushing."-Dan. 11:40. Soviet reactions to the tough line recently adopted by the "king of the
  south" show that the "king of the north" does not intend to be ridden over roughshod. Since
  World War II, the Soviet Union has been "thrusting out his hand" to grab control over various
  "lands" and "hidden treasures," including oil.

  Whatever the extent of the "pushing" by the "king of the south" may be, and whether the "king of
  the north" literally 'floods over' by invading other lands or not, one thing is certain: According to
  Daniel's prophecy, neither "king" will achieve a decisive victory over the other. Concerning the
  "king of the north," the prophecy states: "He will have to come all the way to his end, and there
  will be no helper for him." (Dan. 11:45) Moreover, a parallel prophecy says of the
  Anglo-American World Power, also pictured by the "king of the south," that "it will be without
  hand that he will be broken."-Dan. 8:25. (This is a bizarre interpretation arbitrarily imposed on
  Dan. 8:25 under one of their favorite tools - Parallelism - more about this later)

  So it is clear that they dogmatically insist that at that particular time the shifting identity of the
  King of the North pointed to the Soviet Union.

  Ooops. By 1993 the Soviet Union completely disappeared. More on this amazing event later.
  The thing that is unusual is JW’s never anticipated this event. Let’s see how they dealt with it.

  Watchtower 1993 November/1 p. 21 par. 12 The Final Victory of Michael, the Great Prince
  So who is the king of the north now? Is he to be identified with one of the countries that were
  part of the old Soviet Union? Or is he changing identity completely, as he has a number of times
  before? We cannot say. Who will be the king of the north when Daniel 11:44, 45 is fulfilled?
  Will the rivalry between the two kings flare up again? And what of the huge nuclear stockpiles
  that still exist in a number of lands? Only time will provide the answers to these questions.

  Let’s look at that last sentence again.

  “Only time will provide the answers to these questions.”

  In the words of Dana Carvey as SNL’s Church Lady “Now isn’t that SPECIAL”

  No it’s not special. It is typical of all of JW’s interpretations. Isn’t waiting and watching what
  all so-called Christians do? It is clear why the organization condemns speculation. They have
  speculated their members right into a frantic depression as they bury each successive generation. .
  The only thing left is to say it’s SOON. And that’s what they have been saying. That’s what
  Jesus’ followers were saying for a 100 years after his death. The early Church stopped that
  nonsense early in the 2000 year epoch that followed..

  Back to the wiggle room. JW’s didn’t name a successor to the Soviet Union. They even left it
  open to the possibility that Russia as “one of the countries that were part of the old Soviet Union"
  could emerge from the collapse.

  So, their strategy might now pay off. They will surely jump on current events and give strong
  hints that their members should keep an eye on Russia. They might even say that it was a good
  thing that they didn’t stick to their old interpretations so that it would allow people in the former
  Soviet Union to preach the word without hindrance. It would have surely been self-defeating to
  be telling the newly liberated people of Eastern Europe that they are destined to be citizens of the
  feared Soviet Union again.
• 

  alanv

  The one thing I have learnt with the Watchtower over the years is that they always give themselves wriggle room.

  They will post two completely opposite statements sometimes, so that they can always point to the correct statement when it comes true. They also have said that prophesy can best be understood when it is actually fulfiiled, which actually means they can select the best scriptures to prove something was said years ago that has now been fulfilled.

  It has been said that you can make the bible say whatever you want, and the Watchtower society regularly does that.
• 

  Frazzled UBM

  A few points: 1. The Soviet Union is not the same as Russia 2. The dispute over Crimea will never escalate into a major conflict 3. Russia is not a serious rival for world power with the US (China is emerging as a more likley rival but still has a ways to go) 4. The GB will use current world events however they can to back up their claim that the end is nigh and that bibilical prophecy is being fulfilled but will never admit when a prophecy they made, like the one you quote from 1981, proves totally incorrect - they will never admit that identifying the Soviet Union as the King of the North was completely bogus - if they were actually interested in the TRUTH they would do this.
• 

  StephaneLaliberte

  I would not under estimate the russians. Hitler did that and so did Napoleon and we know how that ended.
• 

  Frazzled UBM

  I don't underestimate them - they will hold on to Crimea and no one will push them out simply because it is not important enough for NATO to go to war over and the Ukraine miliatary are not strong enough to resist. The sanctions are hurting Russia but not enough and the West won't sustain them. The referendum will vote in favour of independence from Ukraine and that will legitimize a creeping Russian annexation. But Russian ambitions are very much about protecting borders not projecting power hence why they are not the Soviet Union when it comes to being a global military force. And the ideological war with the US that played out during the Cold War is also a thing of the past.
• 

  Bobcat

  An example of what Alan said about the WT hedging their bets: Here.
• 

  respectful_observer

  The facts in print indicate that this time they left themselves a little wiggle-room.

  Yup, they always do.

  Not to derail too much, but I keep waiting for the GB to update the "understanding" of the clay/iron feet on Daniel's image. I could see them saying that the iron represents the totalitarian/Military/Communist regimes (ruling "by iron/the sword") around the world as a composite group, and the clay represents the composite group of "democratic" countries that center their governmental power from "The People" (humans are dust/dirt/clay, yadda yadda). The iron and clay co-exist, but do not mix. Basically making the arguement that all world powers through history ruled, essentially, through non-democratic (strong, metal-like) means-- but now at the end, clay is introduced as democratic (people/voter-based) powers enter the world scene.
• 

  undercover

  It's just the over-lapping of Russian generations, donchaknow
• 

  scotoma

  Respectful,

  The biggest mistake the Watchtower has made is due to their bias from having their headquarters in the USA.

  They are stuck on hanging the Anglo-American label as a place marker on every convenient prophetic hook.

  Clearly there are only four metals in the dream image.

  Gold = Babylon
  Silver = Persia
  Copper = Greece
  Iron = Rome.

  The strength of Rome was pictured as extending all the way to the point where the Kingdom of
  the Heavens brings an end to these world powers.

  The Watchtower likes to believe that Britain and America are the continuation of the Roman
  empire.

  History indicates something quite different. Britain may have been a Roman colony but it was
  never the ruling center of the Roman empire.

  The ruling center of the Roman empire shifted to the Eastern, richest and most populous part of
  the Roman empire. The Byzantine empire was the real successor to Rome and continued as such
  until 1476, almost a millennium after the fall of Rome .

  Russia claims it is the “Third Rome”. The Russian flag with it’s double headed eagle facing East
  and West was also the emblem of the Byzantine empire. It is worthwhile to read about the
  concept of the “Third Rome” and Russia’s historical link to that idea. Look up Third Rome on the
  internet. The Babylon book published by the Watchtower in 1963 has a section devoted to the
  Third Rome and Russian Orthodoxy but they never jumped on the significance of the Third Rome

  In Russia you have the most significant features of the feet of Daniel’s dream image.

  Russia is described by scholars as an Ethnofederation. Look up “ethnoferalism and think CLAY).
  It is made up of many distinct nations and language groups. They are held together loosely by
  force of arms (Iron). Look up Ethnic Groups in Russia on Wikipedia. There are 185 listed. This
  is why Russia beat up Chechnya. They are fighting against disintegration. Without Ukraine
  Russia will likely disintegrate completely. They will lose any chance of building a strong central
  power. This is why the situation in Ukraine is do or die. The principle route for invading Russia
  is the flat plains of Ukraine. Hitler and Napoleon took that route.
• 

  EndofMysteries

  Most of the time, UNLESS it's 'the generation' or something that is too hard to sneakily change, the WT doesn't close the door formally on old doctrine. They will either very slowly or wait a long time and just release a change without acknowledging it was wrong to begin with.

  A great example of this is how Rutherford taught that there was NO holy spirit since 1918ish. That doctrine was what gave him power, since Jesus returned, holy spirit was no longer needed. Just like when Jesus was on Earth, he told his disciples he must leave and he'll send the helper, (the holy spirit) to teach them. So Rutherford claimed Jesus returned, invisibly, and the only way to get the truth and understand the bible now was through Jesus select channel, the WT, aka Rutherford, because nobody could get holy spirit to understand the scriptures anymore. He taught that the method Jesus communicated was none of anybody's business nor their place to question, but it could be angels, or the anointed who had gone 'beyond the veil' (died). After Rutherford died, perhaps over a period of 15/20 years, Knorr never formally rejected that previous teaching, they just let holy spirit creep back in.

  Think about it, if Jesus and angels were having direct communication and orders, then NOTHING could be wrong, their false predictions couldn't blame human imperfection. So knorr let holy spirit or spirit directed enter into the mix. However, when previously holy spirit could be had by ANYBODY and ANYBODY could understand, they didn't want to give up their exclusive power, so spirit directed crept in, allowed them to be false prophets and twist things to say they were still in charge and nobody can learn except through them, etc.