Congratulations, Tim. Yes, life is good! Good to hear you're taking some classes. College was a life changer for me, opened me up to so many ideas and new ways of thinking! Psychotherapy is an interesting field too. Have fun!
mindseye
JoinedPosts by mindseye
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Happily living life after the JWs. I didnt know it was possible.
by TimothyT inits the most perculiar thing.
i recall when i was in, i used to wonder how those disfellowshipped could live with themselves and thought that they must be the saddest and most depressed people on this earth.. how wrong i was.
now that im one of this disfellowshipped ones my life has improved dramaticaly and im happier than i ever was.
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Would you go back if you thought there were one in a million chances you were wrong?
by Paul Duda inoften i wake up in a cold sweat wondering if i'm wrong.
life is short.
i have only a brief time to make a decision.
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mindseye
Today, I am 150% convinced that the JWs don’t have the truth. I know without a single doubt that I made the right decision. Even if I thought they might be right, I still wouldn’t return. I would rather die along with people like the Dalai Lama, than to serve a jealous, petty, psychopathic, mass-murdering god that the Watchtower worships.
Right on Jeremy C. This was the clincher for me. If they are right, and their God is going to murder peaceful, loving people just for not having the 'right' faith, then why is this God even worthy of worship? Once I had this revelation, I could move on with my life.
Paul, like Jeremy says, what you're going through is normal. Even those of us raised 'around' the religion have dealt with those thoughts. Just stand back and analyze what they're really teaching. Do you feel comfortable with that? Then proceed from there.
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What's This Thing Called Consciousness?
by frankiespeakin inhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/consciousness.
vedanta.
according to vedanta, awareness is not a product of physical processes and can be considered under four aspects.
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mindseye
Thanks for the links, frankiespeakin. This subject has been on the forefront of my mind lately, I started to read a book on consciousness by psychologist Susan Blackmore. The big question for me is does the 'self' actually exist at all. Buddhist thought holds that the self is illusory. The philosopher David Hume concluded that the self is not an entity, but a "bundle of sensations". Fascinating stuff.
JamesThomas, with advances in neuroscience, ideas concerning consciousness might not be just 'beliefs' much longer, but eventually acheive some scientific validity. But sometimes I think the questions are more fun than conclusive answers, anyway.
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Any Mad Men fans?
by Pandoras cat11 ini can't believe that it took me this long to finally watch this show.
what a well written program and the actors are great.
um---jon hamm is something else!!!
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mindseye
Excellent show, one of the few great things on TV (now that the Sopranos is off the air). It shows that the good ole' days weren't always so good (but looked glamorous, at least). The show has some soap opera-like elements, but I feel that it takes it time and unfolds more like a novel. It's subtle, something that's rarely seen in most entertainment IMO.
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Why JWs Often Have a Hard Time Thinking For Themselves
by Jeremy C intoday, cedars had a really good post on a questions from readers article in which the watchtower instructs jws to consult the watchtower library index when they have questions on personal matters.
the watchtower article explained that the branch cannot answer all personal inquiries that come into their offices.
this post got me thinking about an area that i gave a lot of thought to prior to; and after leaving the organization.
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mindseye
It seems that most young JWs who get a college education do begin to see through the Watchtower rhetoric, but not all of them. I have known many JWs who became highly educated and earned advanced degrees while remaining just as devoted to the Watchtower as anyone. I’ve also known some people who dropped out of high school, yet were still honest-minded enough to be able to pick apart the fallacies of Watchtower doctrines.
I'm glad that you pointed this out, Jeremy C. I've observed the same thing. To finally leave the Watchtower is not always a triumph of intellect, but rather a feat of emotional courage. You're right on the money in stating that devotion to the Watchtower is much more emotional - it is why there are many otherwise bright people who stay in. It's true that higher education isn't always the silver bullet some of us think it is - some who go to college probably dismiss much of the critical thinking, evolution, and other things taught as 'tools of Satan'. Meanwhile, there are others of average education and intelligence who just see right through the Watchtower. It may be a matter of temperament rather than intelligence. A couple of Philosophy or Logic classes wouldn't hurt, though.
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mindseye
Glander:
As far as not upsetting the applecart of long time JWs who are getting up in years and have lives completely saturated with the org. This is a situation soaked with irony. What about the people they converted or are trying to convert as we speak. Do they think that it would be unkind to convince a lifelong Catholic or Baptist, etc. to abandon their family faith?
True. I find it ironic that when confronted with the reality of the Watchtower society, a Witness will accuse the critic of not being "upbuilding." Meanwhile they're going door to door trying to take people from their own faith!
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mindseye
Good points, Scully, I find little to argue with. Just a note that not all situations are similar, and not all answers are so cut and dried (for instance, breaking reality to the little old lady who lived her life as a witness, and has only a few years left).
Personally, I think everyone needs some kind of structure/organization/framework from which to function. At the very least, most of us rely on the structure we call "time" - it is essential in relating to other people, to accomplish things. Can you imagine what your life would be like if, all of a sudden, you decided "To hell with this freakin time thing. I hate Mondays so I'm going to remove them from my life. From now on, the week will consist of 6 days of 28 hours each, and Mondays will no longer exist."
Actually, this is not such a bad idea. I might try this if I ever have the resources to get away with it.
All I'm saying is that for the person who requires *that much* structure/regimentation in their lives that the military is a viable alternative to the JW lifestyle, there's probably something going on psychologically (OCD, or addictive personality, for example). I'd venture to guess that in those individuals, they are merely trading one addictive lifestyle for another, and the trade may not be upward.
True. These individuals probably do suffer from some chemical imbalance or some other psychological issue. Unfortunately, some might never seek the psychological help that they need due to the stigma the org has attached to it over the years. So they return to the org for some semblance of 'stability'. It's self-defeating for the person, and manipulative of the org (of course). The ideal solution would be to free the person of the organization and get them serious help, but in my experience that's not always very realistic.
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mindseye
It's hard to argue that an individual doesn't have a right to the (real) truth, but I'll do it anyway. Some people are just not ready for the red pill.
Many of us have parents and grandparents like this. They've staked so much of their lives in the religion. At this point would it do just as much harm as good for them to know reality?
For one of my older relatives, it's pretty much a social club. She likes to go out in service so she can hang out with the sisters. It serves that function in her life. Would it be ethical to tear her away from that?
And there's the rough life type that thinking_1 pointed out, what I call the "born again witness", who without the structure of the org might be laying in a ditch somewhere with a needle in their arm. If born-in, I find that this type buys into the myth of the "worldly person" as an anarchic hedonist. When these types fall away from "the truth" they often become Charlie Sheen. Then when they hit rock bottom they come crawling back seeking redemption. I find in this case they are a product of that Watchtower's dualistic thinking, but in the end they often have a hard time functioning outside of it.
So, we often say that these people can take control of their lives, and when they do clean up it's all really in them. Really? I remain skeptical. I've seen similar situations when people with rough backgrounds go into the army. Some people just seem to need some imposed structure of an organization.
Any easy answers? No, not really.
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What you believe is NOT an intellectual feat of logic: PURE ACCIDENT
by Terry inlet's take a completely fresh approach.. take out your eraser and wipe the blackboard clean.. there!.
now, start over.... we can't go outside with a telescope and search the skies for a location for god or heaven.. there is a source for god ideas.. depending on what your national and racial origin is the source may be some holy writings.. in the west, due to accident of birth (on our part) we have the bible or scriptures.. this is a received text, so we are told.. take it or leave it---you cannot go around it.. can we all agree on one thing?
there are possibilities:.
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mindseye
Right on as usual, Terry. What I find curious is that literalists refuse to except the abundant evidence for evolution, but so easily except the Bible as a complete preserved document passed down from God. They don't apply the same burden of proof to their own assertions as they apply to others.
And if we were born somewhere else we would possibly be discussing the Pali Canon, the Koran, or some other text.
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Living as a gay Jehovah's Witness - My Story!
by TimothyT in[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:worddocument> <w:view>normal</w:view> <w:zoom>0</w:zoom> <w:compatibility> <w:breakwrappedtables /> <w:snaptogridincell /> <w:wraptextwithpunct /> <w:useasianbreakrules /> </w:compatibility> <w:browserlevel>microsoftinternetexplorer4</w:browserlevel> </w:worddocument> </xml><!
[endif][if !mso]> <object classid="clsid:38481807-ca0e-42d2-bf39-b33af135cc4d" id=ieooui> </object> <style> st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) } </style> <!
it wasn't a feeling of rebellion; it was the feeling of love and care i desired.
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mindseye
Congrats Tim, that's a really moving story. It was so good that your parents reacted well to your situations.
Concerning sinis and others comments, I know where you're coming from, but do realize there are more nuanced, non-literalist ways to interpret the bible. We often don't realize this because we were raised in a very infantile, hyper-literalist form of christianity.
I know a lesbian christian couple, and they told me that many gay christians see the story of Jonathan and David as a gay love story.
see here: www.gaychristian101.com
Ruth and Naomi are another example. Is this taking what one wants from the Bible while ignoring the bad stuff? Yeah, maybe so. But that's what most christians have been doing for centuries anyway (and some emphasizing the bad stuff for their benefit, i.e. slavery).
If the religious traditions serve as a sort of mythos, a mythological narrative that resonates in one's life, I can't see how it's really a bad thing. When it gets dangerous is when people get bogged down in literalism and fundamentalism.