Posts by Liberty

35

The Battery is almost Dead.

by KW13 in

jw
friends

for over 100 years the same message of doom and gloom for the world has been preached with a twist.

if your a jehovah's witness you can be saved.. .

i think people are tired of expecting the end of the system, the older generation (there are more older ones than younger i am guessing) are seeing the end of their lives when they thought they never would and some of them probably think about the false prophecy.. .

Liberty

Watchtowerism has been without a viable doctrinal "energy source" ever since Fred Franz died in the early 1990's. They are truely running on fumes at this point, or as you put it so well, the battery is almost dead. Since Fred Franz successfully kicked out the best and brightest of his braintrust competition in the witch trails of the early 1980's his death really left the Watchtower Society in a pickle. Without an energetic and imaginative "Bible Scholar" who is adept at "mental gymnastics" no matter how misguided and looney, the Watchtower leadership has been in an intellectual vacuum for years now. This is a religion and, truthfully, all religion really has to offer are basically imaginative ideas held together by a sense of community and tradition. A comparitively young religion like Watchtowerism has very little tried and tested tradition to successfully recycle their time-failed ideas unlike traditional Christianity which has not relied on time-limited promises/ideas for 1800 years now.

In short, the only appeal of Watchtowerism over traditional Christianity is its DOOM & GLOOM "Bible-based" tm. AREN'T THINGS TERRIBLE ONLY WE KNOW WHEN Armeggedon time -lines " and paradise your lifetime" extra complicated "deep" understanding by God's only Earthly Channel. Without any updated or interesting DEEP (it was deep all right) understanding of Bible prophecy they now really have very little to offer someone seeking an alternative to traditional Christianity. The fire is out and the coals are smoldering. If someone comes along with some new twists and some charisma these coals can be reignited but how many Russels, Rutherfords, and Franzes are there? So far none in the Watchtower camp who've been left alone long enough to take over.... so they get fumes, coals and dying batteries.

10

Property is theft?

by Narkissos in

jw
friends

from one language or one continent to another very similar words often have very different meanings.

perhaps notions too.. one striking example (for a french user of an english forum) is the political/economical use of the notion of "freedom / liberty".. for instance, "liberalism" in current english seems to be fairly equivalent to "left-wing" (on almost any issue, whether moral, social or economical).

in french, liberalisme points to low state involvement in economic or social issues, which is clearly a right-wing doctrine.

Liberty

Hi Narkissos,

I consider myself a libertarian so I may be semi-qualified to answer your question. Firstly, since I am an atheist also, I would say that any concept of ownwership is strictly a human construct much like manners and morality. Since I believe that there is no "higher authority" who gives us absolute truths we as humans are left floundering around to find "truths" on our own using logic, history, and experiance to formulate some kind of objective reality we can live with. The concept of property falls into this category. Ayn Rand wrote extensively on the non-theistic justifications of a property concept. As I recall chief among her arguments was how human individuals take a natural resource and through the application of intelligence and labor produce something of a much greater value which can rightly then be thought of as their property.

I think any human construct is open to critical debate and ultimately I would agree that no one can really own anything since the Universe was here long before the first human could claim it. I could make the same arguments for rape and murder since forced sex and killing among animals has existed for much longer than any human or their moral contstructs. However, in order for humans to live together in some kind of orderly semi-peaceful way, we have evolved these human constructs and formed societies. I think the American concept that personal property insures individual liberty is such a construct. The writings of Ayn Rand and other liberty based philosophies have convinced me (a once ardent communalist) that individualism goes hand in hand with property rights and liberty. You cannot have communalism/communism/socialism and individual freedom because they are mutually exclusive. So far capitalism, though imperfect, is the most liberty friendly economic system since, by its very nature, you have less people to answer to. The economic effeciency of capitalism is also a nice side benifit to enhance the individual liberty angle.

I think a key to understanding the american libertarian view is the acceptance that all humans are very different in ability and intelligence, therefore, equality is not a literal concept applied to people outside of a government arena. Equality is the way a very limited government should treat citizens equally not giving special favors or changing laws for people based on social class or race. In short, equality is how laws are written and enforced by the governments but not an individual's concept applied to the very real differences in human beings. There is an acceptance that there will always be segments of a given population which are not as well off as others due to circumstance or lack of ability. Libertarianism is NOT a Utopian philosophy which promises to solve all problems. Libertarianism/capitalism merely promises to be the most effecient and liberty friendly system among many other flawed economic models. It is unrealistic to think perfection of any human construct is possible since their source, the human mind, is imperfect.

20

Bible Study - what do you think of this?

by Bad Girl in

jw
friends

i cant help thinking that the original "bible students" did things the right way compared to how its done today.

they sat together in small groups, read and discussed scriptures and then wrote down their findings.

they did this until they had gone through the whole bible.. i know that reading the entire bible is a prerequisite for becoming a jw, but i wonder how many jws really do it or if most of them just know the regular snippets of scripture which are quoted in the magazines, and of course in field ministry etc.. i have decided that allthough i have read the bible - i think i am going to do a study of it the way these early bible students did, im going to read paragraph by paragraph and write down my findings and my feelings about what is written.

Liberty

PrimateDave gave some great references. Also I was amazed at just how silly the Bible really is if you read it "fresh" without 2000 years of Christian apologetics giving you preconceptions that you subconsciously read into the Bible texts. In short, try reading it as just another book you knew nothing about before you started reading it and it becomes a whole different experiance.

For example, a fresh reading of the Adam & Eve story is a real eye-opener. Most people are shocked to find that the Devil is NOT mentioned anywhere in the text. It is also very clear that the serpent is the real truth-teller in the story and not God. I challenge you to read it just as is without all the centuries of Christian excuses and extra-biblical explainations filling in the the gaps and you will be amazed. The Creation account is a real hoot even if you only have an 8th grade understanding of basic science you will see how out of sequence and impossible it all is.

Just a few more reasons why the Watchtower Society doesn't want you reading the Bible without their "help".

69

Did u want to leave the org bcause u were doing something immoral?

by Will2Power in

jw
friends

..and then sought to justify your leaving the organisation/religion by researching websites like this (to salve your conscience, justify continuing in your pleasurable but unscriptural lifestyle), or did you sincerely leave purely because you discovered certain false teachings, scandals, etc, while still living a moral, christian lifestyle?

be honest now, i mean really honest.

(this is not meant to offend anyone but viewed like a survey).

Liberty

Many JWs believe it is true that the most likely persons who would leave Watchtowerism are involved in some kind of "immmorality". I think logic and statistics tells us that this is a false perception since the Watchtower Society easily forgives even the most horrific of sexual sins, child molestation. Immorality is not what the Watchtower fears since most true believers beg to come back and are easily accepted back for mere "human weakness" type sins.

What is unforgivable and most strictly policed by the Watchtower is doctrinal disagreement. Those most likely to be guilty of "independant thinking" are the Society's most moral and thoughtful members who are bothered by their cognitive dissonence with Watchtower teachings which disturb their consciences and/or off balance their logic compasses. Being a drugged out alcoholic sex maniac does not entail much thinking and people involved in such things are usually in no condition to "take a stand" or "make a statement" by voluntarily leaving Watchtowerism since they are guilt-ridden and shamed and do not wish to make a scene which can forever cut them off from their family and friends. On the other hand, people who leave for intellectual reasons are exactly the type who will make a stand and are willing to give up family, friends, and comfort because they believe that real truth is more important. These folks usually never come back since they are perfectly justified and unashamed of their new found belief that the Watchtower philosophy is patently false and that the leadership has known all along that it is false.

I left as a teenager because my gut told me that what they tought just did not add up and my intensive research later proved that Watchtowerism was, in fact, wrong. I was researching the Bible and science instead of "having a good time" for years due to my Watchtower trauma. I remained a virgin until I was 29 years old, long after I ceased to be a JW and knew that their doctrines were false. Immorality of any kind was never my reason for leaving. I left because Watchtowerism is a LIE. I was able at some point long after I no longer considered myself a JW to have a fairly normal sex life with one partner when I finally overcame the Watchtower's alarmist and narrow minded concepts of sexuality which I had been brainwashed with. In fact, my "morality" was actually the last thing to go instead of the first. Since I have been with the same woman now for 15 years I am not even sure I qualify for being "immoral" by even the strictist standards since many JWs in good standing have had many more sexual partners than me due to divorce or reinstatment.

53

how many atheist and agnostics on this site

by dannygwalsh in

jw
friends

hi everyone just a question to satisfy my curiosity , and if you are a non believer are you happier for being so

Liberty

I am much happier as an atheist than I ever was as a JW. Now knowing that all the horrors occurring throughout the Universe are driven by random and unthinking forces allows me a somewhat more restfull sleep than when I believed that there was some kind of intelligence driving it all. I slowly came to realize that such an 'intelligence" would either have to be cruel, unjust, stark-raving-mad, and plainly evil or more simply nonexistant.

I can't get the vivid imagery of that fallen naked baby bird, I once saw as kid, out of my mind when ever I hear the words our "loving Creator". I had an epiphany that day long ago as I watched it writhing in agony, trailing its guts in the baking Sun, slowly dying of dehydration all the while being eaten alive by ants, and I dared to ask myself , "Did God create this?". One of the first small steps I took on that long journey to freedom from theism's oppressive delussions.

13

What went on in Mexico and Malawi?

by Jerohobobonadad in

jw
friends

hello all i hope you are well.. forgive my ignorance again, but what happened in mexico/ malawi?

when did it happen?.

i keep seeing references to these places in various topics.. anyone got a good link that explains it clearly.

Liberty

Another interesting point about Malawi at that time. Since it was a one party state and no opposition parties were allowed having to buy the party card was really like having to pay a small tax. Since the card cannot really be "political" , since no real politicing was allowed in this dictatorship, the Society could have easily given this a special approval much like they did for themselves with the NGO status or with blood fractions and saved a lot of people from suffering and death. I would equate it with having to buy postage stamps from the Government Post Office or tags for your car, are these "political" activities which violate "Christian Neutrality"?

170

Let's just get something straight about 1975.

by WTFBBQPWNT in

jw
friends

nobody ever said that the end was coming in 1975.. all the hype about this date that has continued all the way down through today came from a talk in the early 70's by fred franz.

in this talk, franz pointed out the significance of the 7 creative days and how they correspond with 1,000-year time intervals.. he then said, "could the end come in 1975?

there's so much wrong with jehovah's witnesses from their rigid legalism to their faux love, but let's call a spade a spade about the 1975 thing..

Liberty

Sorry for any confusion but Lady Liberty & Liberty are two different people. I am Liberty. I just don't want Lady Liberty to be blamed for anything stupid I might write.

I am still confused by your comments R6Laser because I and most of the board know exactly where your Uncle got his belief that you would not graduate, straight from the Watchtower Society's publications. I saw almost the exact wording in print from an old Watchtower publication in this very thread. It has been official Watchtower policy for years to discourage young people from going to university and a reason often sighted is that such a "worldly" education will do you no good because the end is so near so you should be a Pioneer instead. Your Uncle did not come up with this on his own, this is Watchtower policy and not just a local congregational opinion.

Are there JWs who ignor even "strong" suggestions from the Society? Sure, there are JWs who are smarter than others and know how to play the game. Elders in my old congregation kept building their businesses, buying houses, and having children they later sent to college all the while telling the rest of us not to do these very same things because the big "A" is any day now. They were smart enough to mouth the Society words but apparently didn't put much faith in it themselves. I find these "smart" JWs the most dispicable because their own religion is obviously a joke to them. I feel sorry for the true believers who really sacrificed.

The Society did the same thing at a higher level as they invested in property and built their infrastructure just as if they knew that the big "A" was infinitely postponed. The excuse that they would need this massive physical plant to administer things in the "New System" flies in the face of their own doctrine since they believed the UN would destroy all religion and take their assests before the big "A" there would be no assurance that all these Watchtower owned material holdings would be available for their use anyway in Paradise since any and all remaining buildings, factories, or goods would be available for their use regardless of pre-destruction ownership.

170

Let's just get something straight about 1975.

by WTFBBQPWNT in

jw
friends

nobody ever said that the end was coming in 1975.. all the hype about this date that has continued all the way down through today came from a talk in the early 70's by fred franz.

in this talk, franz pointed out the significance of the 7 creative days and how they correspond with 1,000-year time intervals.. he then said, "could the end come in 1975?

there's so much wrong with jehovah's witnesses from their rigid legalism to their faux love, but let's call a spade a spade about the 1975 thing..

Liberty

Just to be perfectly clear R6Laser you are 100% correct in saying that "over zealous brothers" pushed 1975. The problem is that these "over zealous brothers" were in fact the real dictatorial leadership of the Watchtower Society to the point where they were in fact THE Watchtower Society in every sense of its full meaning. Having the Watchtower Society say that 1975 was the fault of some over zealous brothers is like the Nazi government of Germany saying WWII and all the Nazi atrocities were all the fault of a few over zealous soldiers and airmen from the German military. This statement is 100% true yet very misleading. Hitler and Goehring were just a few over zealous members of the German military but they also happened to be the absolute rulers of the Nazi dictatorship and were, IN FACT, Nazi Germany. Fred Franz was an over zealous brother, he also happened to be co-dictator of the Watchtower Society and in charge of and responsable for ALL speculation, policy, and Bible interpretation forced upon the JW community.

You are also right in declaring how hard it is to convince hard core JWs that the Society said the big "A" would happen in 1975 because the leadership has always played a shell game about who really runs the Watchtower Society and since most JWs don;t know who really is in charge it is hard for them to pin any accusations on the Society which to them does not rely on any human leadership and hence cannot be faulted for human errors.

16

Campfire Ghost Stories and Jehovah's Witnesses

by The wanderer in

jw
friends

campfire ghost stories and jehovah's witnesses being in the organization there were always stories, rumors, and gossip.

that ran rampant throughout the congregations.

from time to time you.

Liberty

The most interesting thing about all these supposidly unique JW brushes with the supernatural is that my ex-Southern Baptist wife had heard most of the same stories just modified slightly for more mainstream fundies to ooo and ahhh over, capper evidence to me that these stories are 100% made up nonsense. On top of all of this we could logically ask why would super intellegent beings just one step below the creator of the Universe (i.e. fallen angels) waste their time and powers on "demonizing" old toys,clothes, furniture, shawls, game boards, etc. just to scare a bunch of shaved apes living in some third rate star system? It just doesn't add up.

42

Ray Franz CoC, was he in denial? Just asking.

by Wasanelder Once in

i was reading a little coc last night where ray f. disusses the witch hunt at bethel that resulted in all the oustings.

as i read the doctrines that he questioned, (not judging him right or wrong), i noticed that he was questioning some of the fundamental beliefs of the wt.

ie: gov.

Liberty

What many forget is that all of us who had our little flashes of doubt while thinking at the same time that we had the "Truth" were in denial, that is why this state is called cognitive dissonance because if you weren't in some kind of denial you would have cognitive harmony.

As to the charge that Ray Franz wanted power I'd say it is completely false as I believe Fred Franz was vey early on grooming his nephew for a greater leadership role and since Fred was already ancient as hell when Ray was added to the GB then only an honest man or a fool could not see that in just a few years he (Ray) could have accepted the mantal as the new Watchtower Guru/Oracle when Fred died. The void left by Fred's death is still felt today and Ray had the intellegence and crediability to fill that void if that is what he had wanted to do. Because Ray's conscience was bothering him he was incapable of plotting this otherwise very obvious move. He wasn't even enough of a schemer to hold out for reform until he was in a better power position. He got in trouble because he felt he had to honestly discuss his doubts with others and because he could not in good conscience approve of certain GB protocals. These are hardly the actions of a power hungry plotter.

What is also forgotten or unknown to younger JWs is that there were tremendious changes bubbling over in the late 1960's and 70's in the Organization and no one knew just how it would all shake out. In this power-confused environment where Fred kept undermining his own policy changes and trying to readjust to his own interpretations I think Ray was fooled into believing for a while that organizational reform was possible from the inside, had Knorr lived a few more years it is possible that things would have turned out differently as Knorr was the pragmatic balance to Fred Franz's manic and misguided talents as a Bible interpretor. After Knorr's death it was inevitable that Fred's ego and his paranoia about any percieved disloyalty to what were essentially his ideas and traditions would take center stage much to the detriment of any would-be reformers.