Godrulz - You have a PM. I answered all your questions in a private memo because they did not directly relate to the thread. If you wish to start a new thread on these items and use my letter to you that is fine with me. That might have been a better response that would include others in on what might be a fine spiritual discussion. Your choice. Salty Old Lady
saltyoldlady
JoinedPosts by saltyoldlady
-
23
dos it really matter if someone drinks the wine and eats the crackers??!
by highdose ina big part of every memorial i ever went to was given to drumming it home that unless you were anoited you couldn't partake.
and everyone would be watching the "strangers" as their turn came, ripples of horror would go round the congregation if they dared to nibble or sip(!).
... but seriously what is the problem?
-
-
-
23
dos it really matter if someone drinks the wine and eats the crackers??!
by highdose ina big part of every memorial i ever went to was given to drumming it home that unless you were anoited you couldn't partake.
and everyone would be watching the "strangers" as their turn came, ripples of horror would go round the congregation if they dared to nibble or sip(!).
... but seriously what is the problem?
-
-
saltyoldlady
Godrutz - I'm speaking as a Christian to make JW's think. I am out of the place for real and for good. But I'm also trying to evaluate all the scriptural points to check out my own views and be positive they are correct.
I did note that the judgment one would incur if they partake "unworthily" was defined in verse 32 - and it is not everlasting destruction or death or having committed the unforgivable sin like we used to feel if we took part at the WTS meetings. It actually says it is a matter of "discipline." And the discipline has a purpose - that we not be condemned with the world.
My thoughts on the body is that it means we must discern the body of Christ which to my way of thinking is the group of true Christians - my take on that may be a bit influenced by years of WTS training but I have not been able to view any church group as "that body" - least of all the WTS itself - but I do meet individuals that impress me as being brothers of Christ - the true body of Christ. So my experience tells me discerning the body is looking for the fruits Christ said would result from following him. And that where there are two or three of his disciples He is there with us - that that would be all that is required for discerning the body. Do I have that right?
And being worthy would simply mean scrutinizing oneself for genuine belief in the ransom sacrifice of Christ and it's value - that we don't just partake in a casual manner but that we do so with humility and sincere godly devotion and repentence where we need to do so. All that kind of stuff?
But the establishment of a "covenant" for rulership, being a judge, priest, etc. - like the WTS puts it - I can understand that being the case with the apostles at the Last Supper but I can not understand that being the case for everybody that believes and puts faith in Jesus Christ and desires that everlasting life he provides. That we should have a covenant relationship with him and be called his brothers seems right to me but "heirs to a kingdom?" That is heavy stuff. And if I don't picture myself "ruling" then am I partaking unworthily? I don't think I have this ironed out. I feel called of the Spirit or born of the Spirit but I don't perceive it in the way the WTS does. Am I in error here? The Bible does say we are heirs - heirs of everlasting life sounds good - positions of responsibility - hmm - that is another matter. That I might administer healing via his instructions - I can see myself doing that and would find joy in that. That I would be judging - that doesn't fit well but I suppose if he tells us what and how - any of us can do it - just not now.
Anyway if the 144,000 were literal and it is only that administrative group that partakes and the WTS says they are strictly "first fruits" then that group got filled way back in the first century for sure and no one would be qualified today, period. So does one have to see himself as of that group to be partaking worthily? And I even have some serious questions as to whether the 144,000 are a literal number since other parts of that same scripture are not interpreted literally by the WTS.
And then when I read the words at John 6:53-54 - Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you have no life in yourselves. He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day..............makes it sound as though all true Christians who want to be in union with Christ and enjoy everlasting life would be partaking. Am I missing something here? The reasoning book indicates by passing the emblems they "figuratively" partake - maybe their resurrection is just "figurative" too? LOL Or has their updated version changed that? I've not seen the new one I heard has been issued.
I have to agree that I think pasing the emblems and refusing them surely resembles the Gnostic practice and could be grave error while at the same time we don't want to partake just because everyone else is doing so - it needs to be a sincere and serious deicision made upon much prayerful thought and communication with the Savior and contemplation of His Word. And it seems logical we need to dedicate our lives to Jesus Christ and His Father, Jehovah - never to an organization of men though. Suppose because WTS conceives of themselves as being the Body of Christ - the "only" true believers on Planet Earth - they think that dedication to the organization okay. But I could never bring myself to agree with that one myself besides the fact that they do not have "the truth" on ever so many items.
-
23
dos it really matter if someone drinks the wine and eats the crackers??!
by highdose ina big part of every memorial i ever went to was given to drumming it home that unless you were anoited you couldn't partake.
and everyone would be watching the "strangers" as their turn came, ripples of horror would go round the congregation if they dared to nibble or sip(!).
... but seriously what is the problem?
-
-
saltyoldlady
Some questions to ask after reading 1 Corinthians chapter 11:20-34 and John 6:53-54
What is that "covenant relationship" Jesus established at the time of the Last Supper? What is the basis that WTS uses to prove it is only for judges, rulers, and priests type? Is that a correct twist on things?
What does being "worthy" involve?
What is "the body" that we are to discern? Is that body limited to just the WTS? Or does it even include the WTS?
What does a person LOSE by not partaking of the emblems per John scriptural reference?
The last question and the third question are well answered via the scriptures but the other ones could leave many questions in a person's mind. How do you answer them?
-
34
The first thing I did when I left the WT....
by sherry123 inwas sing the national anthem out loud......alone......in my house.
what did you do?.
-
-
saltyoldlady
First thing I did was happily acquire every apostate book I could find, read them, write to the authors of those still alive, and display all my apostate literature right out front in my living room library. It felt so good! No more living in the shadows for me.
-
41
Has your anger turned to pity?
by journey-on ingetting through the tough steps toward real freedom from the wts involves a lot of work for some.
many, start out angry that their authentic lives were hampered by a high-control group of men posing as god's organization.
we feel robbed of something we can't quite put our finger on sometimes.
-
-
saltyoldlady
Anger doesn't often come up for me - takes too much energy to be angry. Compassion is more my style - it's relaxing. I come away feeling better about myself and them. I do feel a great deal of sadness though - sorrow that they can't see their way through the tunnel of judgmental lies into the beauty of the light.
And I notice my grief for those left inside the WTS is worse on dark gloomy overcast days - when the sun shines brightly I don't give the WTS a thought. I guess it has been an experience for me like coming out of a dark dank cold cave into a world with sparkle, interest, and beauty. It's not a world of all flowers and drippy platitudes though - there are tough challenges out here in the REAL world - I sometimes think we were hiding from reality by being inside the WTS. We might have thought we had special protection and security. How false that one is.
We can still have that feeling of closeness with God without being caged up on a smelly rocking old ark full of animal droppings. He doesn't confine us - he gives us freedom to be - to love and be loved. But the idea of special protection or "conditional" security no longer seems like a right to me - that I should personally have and not everyone else also have. God just doesn't serve that purpose for me anymore. I see Him in a very different light now than I ever did inside the WTS. I see Him as loving all of humanity - not just a select few that have followed certain rules.
Was just reading 1 Timothy yesterday 2nd chapter in preparation for my local Bible Study at the Senior Center and realizing the translation of the NWT a bit different in verses 3 and 4 than most other versions. Instead of saying it is God's desire that ALL men be saved it says it is God's desire that "ALL SORTS" of men be saved - there is a vast difference in comprehension there and an exclusivity being promoted that no longer rings true for me.
-
12
World's Oldest Man Dies at 114
by skeeter1 inworld's oldest man dies in montana at 114 end: .tools end: .hd ap 114 year old walter breuning sits for an interview with a reporter for the associated press in the lobby ... end #main-media slideshow:world's oldest man, walter breuning, dies at 114 end .primary-media end .related-media by matt volz, associated press matt volz, associated press fri apr 15, 4:11 am et end .byline great falls, mont.
walter breuning's earliest memories stretched back 111 years, before home entertainment came with a twist of the radio dial.
they were of his grandfather's tales of killing southerners in the civil war.. breuning was 3 and horrified: "i thought that was a hell of a thing to say.".
-
-
saltyoldlady
This old chap was amazing. I think one of his secrets is the good hard water full of minerals in Montana. Seems to me more people live long lives in that area than other places. But he gives me lots to think about in his philosophy of life too. And I especially loved his line - not to worry about dying. Everybody does it!
Another funny line I picked up from a local yokel who just passed away at about 106 as I remember - people used to ask him if he had lived all his life in the Pacific Northwest and he would answer "not yet!"
I think their sense of humor helps too. I have been far too serious most of my life. Now that I am free of WTS shackles I can kick up my heels and enjoy life - who knows maybe I too will make it to the three digit range. LOL
-
22
How Much Did It Cost You Financial Being or Leaving The Witnesses
by Was New Boy init these tough economic times many of us have looked back at the decisions we made concerning money with much dismay.
the organization has cost many people 100's of thousands of dallors or more over the course of their life time.. 1. all the time and gas spent on knocking on doors.. 2. brothers that ripped you off in business.. 3. all the money i gave my exwifes dead beat relatives.. 4. making just minumum wage for two years of poineering.
than going to bethel for four years making only $22 a month, 9 dallors of which went for subway tokens.
-
-
saltyoldlady
My exit has done nothing but save me moolah. I truthfully hadn't realized how much a month it was costing me to be a JW.
For starters as everyone else has mentioned the savings in car expenses alone are immense - I now use about 1/4 as much gasoline a month and that translates to even greater maintenance savings because my miles per year are now less than 3,000 - amazing.
Then the change in apparel has saved me big time - I now live in jeans and sweatshirts, or in the summer shorts and tees - no more dry cleaning or fancy high falutin garb - savings in shoes, gloves, coats, hats, dresses, skirts, blouses, etc. etc. also amazing. Life is so simple now. And I still participate in a Bible Study class at the Senior Center but all of us just show up in whatever garb makes us comfortable - have noticed no one wears a dress - LOL. And none of the fellows wear ties. LOL. And none of the gals wear heels! Etc. Etc. Etc.
And no more NYLONS! I must have snagged a pair of those every week, it seemed.
Then the savings in food has been enough to now make my income seem adequate and comfortable. I used to be "stressed out" over never having enough - now I eat all the goodies I never felt I could afford because facts of the case were I was feeding friends frequently or else going out to restaurants that charge way too much for what they deliver just so we could visit after meetings or field service. Convenience factor that cost PLENTY in the area I live.
And then there's the savings of not having to pay for all that literature we placed that no one really wanted and that they secretly just tossed in the rubbish soon as we left their porch! LOL I hate to think of all the trees we wasted - yes, I'm a tree hugger.
And then there's the freedom from feeling like I must help the needy ones among us - haven't even met a needy one in my new Bible Study Class nor any con artist types either in the last year plus. That is truly Amazing. Did the WTS lay claim to all those? Now am considering contributions to some truly great causes and feeling enriched by the opportunity to do something that makes a difference in the community instead of just being an enabler for those accustomed to getting handouts from others.
A very conservative estimate would be it has saved me about $300/month - and I wasn't expecting that.
-
21
What has work for you, stop smoking.
by jam ini stop smoking when i became a jw, so for 18-19 yrs.
i stop.. this time around it,s very hard to stop.
any suggestion..
-
-
saltyoldlady
Welcome Pelznickel - So glad you found a successful way to quit smoking. They say it's better for the health and I'm convinced that is true. Of course I've fought bronchial asthma much of my life so I never took up the habit. Guess that saved me much stress from trying to cease an addiction and I've heard smoking can be more addicting than even some of the hard drugs. So I feel for any that have struggled to make that change.
-
46
My Study Conductor Jumped Ship - Any Possible Explanations?
by InterestedOne inmy study conductor has informed me that he & his wife are switching to a foreign language congregation that is far away from the territory they live in (it will involve a lot of driving back & forth).
because he is switching congregations, he said he will not have the energy to devote to my study and recommended another brother who could take over, and i have met him.
however, this change happened simultaneously with a decision i have made.
-
-
saltyoldlady
Hey Interested One - I'd study with you via email - or even here on the board if you like - but it wouldn't serve the purpose of getting you into a Congregation of the WTS since I have formally cut my ties with the outfit. LOL But I'd be delighted to wrestle any concepts you have questions about - and from more than one point of view - having spent over 30 years teaching as one of WTS adherents I can present their concepts for you but I'd also encourage scrutinizing them for their flaws and what improvements can be made. That kind of study would be fun. Of course you can easily do it without me too - there are so many on this site with great knowledge and smarts (much better than mine) you could probably just pose your questions as they come one by one on this site and we could all join in on the effort.
-
55
The Watchtower, a cult that worships the FDS and GB!
by VM44 inwith the continual emphasis that the watchtower places on following and trusting the fds and the gb in particular, one can only come to the following conclusion:.
the watchtower (and the jehovah's witnesses) are followers of a cult that worships the fds and the gb!.
essentially everything in the bible refers to the fds/gb.. everyone must listen to and follow what the gb says.. everyone must consume the "rich spiritual food" provided by the fds and the gb!.
-
-
saltyoldlady
VM44 - Thanks for that chart from the 71 WT. It is really unbelievable they could ever have put it out like that. Guess those were the days they admitted the truth of how they were operating more blatantly. Notice the ministerial servants don't have to go thru the elders - but direct to the GB - now that is a new one. Maybe this was someone's new brainstorm at the time cause I don't believe it has ever operated like that. And today's chart would not have any lines drawn up to Christ - it all stops point blank with the GB - a grand bottleneck me calls it! And I think also the chart for today would just eliminate the nice big box for FDS since in truth they operate like the GB is IT - period.
They also call themselves the Temple of God because their definition of that is "WHERE true worship is practized" (msp on purpose) - so they have set themselves down in The Temple of The God as an object of reverence - see 2 Thessalonians verse 4. See Chapters 5 and 6 of Paradise Restored to Mankind - pages 89 or 121 applications of Haggai's Chapter 2 to themselves. This was pointed out to me by a current GB member himself when I was contesting that we are ourselves a temple of the living God - 2 Cor. 6:16. He was very visibly upset by my "misapplication" of what He believed to be the correct view.