the 2012 yearbook has released the publisher statistics for the 2011 service year.
a scan of the report can be found at http://www.jwfacts.com/images/2011-publisher-report.pdf and i have started updating the graphs at http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/statistics.php.
as expected, it is following on from similar trends to the last 15 years.
By the way, interesting rendering of Revelation 21: 3, 4 in the NIV: And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them.
Can God dwell among people with a physical body, exposing them to his radiant glory? The chance of them surviving this is quite small. One more reason why the resurrection is with a spiritual body, and not with flesh and bones.
Hoffnung
the 2012 yearbook has released the publisher statistics for the 2011 service year.
a scan of the report can be found at http://www.jwfacts.com/images/2011-publisher-report.pdf and i have started updating the graphs at http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/statistics.php.
as expected, it is following on from similar trends to the last 15 years.
Hello Vanderhoven,
Good point you make, and I am glad you bring it up. The question is not "Who do you think is going to live on the new earth?", but, is this "new earth" also the "literal earth" as we know it? Because if it cannot positively identified with the "literal, material earth", then there is no reason to believe that the paradise will be on this "literal" earth either. The context of this chapter (Rev 20:11 - 22:5) gives a few enlightening statements:
When the devil is hurled in the lake of fire Rev 20:11 reads (NWT): "And I saw a great white throne and the one seated on it. From before him the earth and the heaven fled away, and no place was found for them". If the "old" earth fled away, is it likely we will live upon it, or that the paradise will be made upon it? I don't think so. Nowhere in chapter 21 the "old" or literal, material earth" is coming back. In the last part of ch 21 and beginning of ch 22 the holy city Jerusalem, the new temple and the river of water of life is shown, and they are all connected together in John's vision. The river was "flowing out from the throne of God (which is in heaven) and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of its broad way (of the holy city jerusalem, which has descended from heaven Rev 21:2). And on this side of the river and on that side [there were] trees of life producing t welve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees [were] for the curing of the nations. (which are living on the "new earth").
Do you estimate it for normal that a river of water flows from heaven onto the literal earth? It is quite obvious that the language used for "new heaven" and "new earth" is highly symbolic, referring to the place where the newly resurrected live, but as no river of water flows from outer space onto the earth, a literal earth is not a possibility.
Furthermore, Rev 21: 23, 24 states there is no need for light of the sun or moon, and the night does not exist, things you would expect there to be on a literal earth. It reads in the NWT: "And the city has no need of the sun nor of the moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God lighted it up, and its lamp was the Lamb. 24 And the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. 25 And its gates will not be closed at all by day, for night will not exist there." Furthermore, no physical person can whitstand the glory of God and yet live (remember Moses), and therefore I don't think the resurrection is in the flesh.
All these verses tell me John was not writing about a literal earth, and hence, Revelation 21:3, 4 cannot be used to advocate life in a paradise on earth. Looking forward to your rebuttal.
Hoffnung
the 2012 yearbook has released the publisher statistics for the 2011 service year.
a scan of the report can be found at http://www.jwfacts.com/images/2011-publisher-report.pdf and i have started updating the graphs at http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/statistics.php.
as expected, it is following on from similar trends to the last 15 years.
Thank for the reply. However, nowhere is it stated in the Greek Scriptures that Jesus did not have angels under his command, rather the opposite. Hence "the angel of the Lord" should not be interpreted automatically as "the angel of Jehovah".
The invalidity of your 2nd point about "the word of the lord" is illustrated in 1 Thess 4:15, 16 (NWT): "For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first." Greek word Kurios in all 3 occurences.
How do you understand these verses if you replace "Jehovah" by "Lord"? If "the presence of the Lord" is clearly identifying Jesus, and if the descendance from heaven from the Lord is also about Jesus, is it not a correct conclusion that "the word of the Lord" in this verse, is the word of Jesus as well?
Let us take a few more occurences:
Acts 6:59, 60 (NWT): And they went on casting stones at Stephen as he made appeal and said: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then, bending his knees, he cried out with a strong voice: “Jehovah, do not charge this sin against them.” And after saying this he fell asleep [in death].
Which Ot verse is quoted here? If Stephen appealed to Jesus in verse 59, was he not appealing to Jesus either in verse 60? (Greek word Kurie both occurences)
Acts 13:1-12 - in the NWT, Jehovah occurs 4 times (v2,10, 11 & 12), and there is not even one of them a quotation or anything else that could identify either Jehovah or Jesus. Why is Jehovah used in the NWT?
Acts 21:14, (NWT), Then Paul answered: “What are YOU doing by weeping and making me weak at heart? Rest assured, I am ready not only to be bound but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.” 14 When he would not be dissuaded, we acquiesced with the words: “Let the will of Jehovah take place.”
Greek word Kurios in both occurences. If Paul refers to Jesus as the Lord in v.13, is Jesus also the Lord in v.14? If this was not intended, would the writer not have written "God" instead?
If you want some more examples, please let me know.
Hoffnung
the 2012 yearbook has released the publisher statistics for the 2011 service year.
a scan of the report can be found at http://www.jwfacts.com/images/2011-publisher-report.pdf and i have started updating the graphs at http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/statistics.php.
as expected, it is following on from similar trends to the last 15 years.
Interesting discussion to follow.
To come back on Slimboyfat, regarding the use of Jehovah or Yahweh in the New Testament, it might be argumented that this is not incorrect to insert the name in quotations of the Hebrew Scriptures. However, of the 237 occurences in the New World Translations, not even HALF of these are quotations. Hence it can only be called an alteration of the text. This becomes very apparent from Acts onwards. In many cases, replacing 'Jehovah' with the original word from the Greek Text (mostly Kyrios), will identify it clearly with Jesus. That this definitely has an influence on meaning and understanding is obvious, and it has to be condemned.
One question I have for David, if you believe that many came to the same understanding like the Witnesses by reading the bible alone. It has to be said that more religions teach that Jesus is not the Almighty God, that he is not part of a Trinity and that there is no such thing like an immortal soul. However, very few teach an resurrection and life in paradise on earth. Not even the Witnesses for a long time in their existence. So this is my challenge for David: please prove from the Greek Scriptures alone (because Christ removed the Mosaic law as he fullfilled it), the earthly hope of life forever in paradise. Nobody who reads the Greek Scriptures by himself will come to this conclusion. Good luck.
Hoffnung
perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.
1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).
sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.
Hello Flame,
You are not the 1st one with this question, nor will you be the last.
Actually, AGuest is answering your questions quite well, and I would like to encourage you to browse through her many contributions on this site. Even if you might not understand everything, it will enlighten your understanding. I add a few ideas if I may.
The belief system that Christ started, was not centrally organized. A contextual reading of Acts 15, will show you that it was a group of elders of the local congregation of Antiochia, had problems with the teachings from another local congregation, Jerusalem. To sort matters out, a delegation was sent to Jerusalem, where the 2 groups came to the conclusion to solve it. Nothing more, nothing less. Early christians met in local congregations, they had elders which they choose themselves, and did not have pioneers, circuit overseers or anything like it.
The early christians did NOT preach from door-to-door. Christ, Paul and others went to open places like synaguoges and market places. The majority of the christians though, did NEVER engage in any formal way of preaching. The great progress was caused by the message going from mouth-to-mouth publicity, informal preaching if you like. This formula still works best, even nowadays.
The real instructions from Jesus, you find in Matthew 25:34-36:
34 “Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, YOU who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for YOU from the founding of the world. 35 For I became hungry and YOU gave me something to eat; I got thirsty and YOU gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and YOU received me hospitably; 36 naked, and YOU clothed me. I fell sick and YOU looked after me. I was in prison and YOU came to me.’
James repeated a similar message in James 1:27: The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world. How you give this an actual meaning in your life is entirely up to you.
One thing is for sure, you cannot do this fully as a Jehovah's Witness. The constant pushing to preach and to engage in other not very valuable activities will keep you away from what really matters. The Society is constantly bashing other churches for their efforts to help other people, instead of preaching, but this is exactly what Jesus commanded us to do.
If you want to do what the bible says, and you do not want to it on your own, you have to find another group of people that wants to do it too. Whether that is in an existing church or not, is your choice. Most important is that this group of people does not force their dogma and understanding upon you, that you are free to read and understand the bible as it comes to you. This is impossible as long as you are an active Witness. I hope I was able to give you some answers.
Hoffnung
greetings.. http://www.jehovah.to/xlation/fp.html.
"do not interpretations belong to god?".
but as the saying goes; you can never satisfy a critic.. .
The Watchtower has claimed itself to be "Jehovah's modern-day prophet" in the 01/01/1978 issue of the Watchtower page 22 paragraph 18, the quote below comes from the WT Lib 2011:
But their real refuge lies in Jehovah’s provision through Christ. He sends to them the modern-day Jeremiah class, with a message that means their salvation. No, the safety of such “Jonadabs” is not to be found in broken-down Christendom, but squarely on the side of Jehovah’s modern-day “prophet.”
This same idea is repeated over and over again, I mention just a few below. In the WT of 15 December 2007, Page 28 par 4, Highlights From the Book of Malachi, the society says it is the "modern-day counterpart" of prophet Elijah.
In the Watchtower of 15 November 2004, Page 14, par 19, article, Speak God's Word With Boldness", it says Jehovah's Witnesses are "modern-day Amaziahs". Amaziah was a prophet.
In the Watchtower of 15 April 1995, page 23 paragraphs 14 & 15 of the article, "The Day That Burns Like a Furnace", Par. 14 asks the question: "Who is that modern-day Elijah?". Par 15 gives the answer: "Thus “Elijah” is identified as the faithful and discreet slave class of anointed Christians on earth, to whom the Master, Jesus, has entrusted all His belongings."
But the best one is "Jeremiah class", putting this word in the WT Lib, gives you 670 references, 616 are in the Watchtower. 26 references are from 2010-2011. If the Society has said more than 300 times it is doing the same as prophet Jeremiah did, then what more do you need to accept that the Society indeed wrote many many times it is a modern-day prophet? (whether that is true is another discussion)
Hoffnung
http://jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/translatable.html.
there will be more to come folks, when i'm allowed to start another topic.
cheers.. to respond to the posting below (since i can't reply right now), it's because they weren't aware of the change until then..
Some screenshots from the WT Lib 2011 that show how much the Watchtower Society published about United Nations, easily prove that they indeed did their utmost in promoting and supporting the UN. For the period the Watchtower Society was formally associated with the UN, from 1990 to 1999 some 935 mentions were made in the Awake magazine. As we know this relationship was cancelled in 2001, and the references over the next 10 years were 50 % lower. A similar picture is found in the United Nations References in the Watchtower. This easily refutes at least a few paragraphs in the jehovahsjudgement.co.uk article.
On the NGO DPI application document, that the jehovahsjudgement.co.uk website says is from 1991, it is also requested that the Society provides examples of articles they have published to promote and supprt the UN. It is obvious that the Society had no problem answering this question. Evidently, the UN would not ask this question if it was not expected from the DPI NGO to publish positive articles about the UN. So the Society knew from the start that they had to support the image of the wild beast, which they had vowed themselves not to get its mark on their forehead. The fact that supporters of the Society have to publish articles that basically say: "yes we did it, but it is not as bad as it seems", show that the accusations are true. If you don't touch it, you don't get burned. Well, the society got burned pretty bad, isn't it?
Hoffnung
i have been lurking on this site for the past 2 months.
for the past few years i have been going to the meetings and doing fieldservice out of guilt.. my husband (twisty) told me regularly i only do it out of guilt but i denied it and said it i want to do these things because i love jehovah and it is the right thing to do, but how can it be the right thing if you don't feel welcome and it feels like everyone is judging you the moment you walk into the kingdom hall.. it has taken a few years and a lot of tears to open my eyes.. over the past few years twisty spoke to me about the various things he didn't agree with but it just went over my head.
a few months ago we were lying in bed and he brought up his concerns again, and i'm not sure what was different this time but i understood and agreed with the points he was making.
Welcome Flicka,
Good for you you can live through this together with your husband. Take your time. Accept that having grown up as a Witness will follow you and your ideas for quite a while. Having found the lies about the "truth" will remove a big weight from your shoulders, and that is one of the reasons it is worth your while. Enjoy the journey, it will not be boring.
Hoffnung
http://jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/translatable.html.
there will be more to come folks, when i'm allowed to start another topic.
cheers.. to respond to the posting below (since i can't reply right now), it's because they weren't aware of the change until then..
Well, at least the society lived up to a promise, for once. playing the role of spiritual hooker with a self declared enemy with zeal and enthousiasm. Proving with great detail that the Watchtower has been actively supporting the UN.
thrtskr, you are a blessing. Many lurkers who read your posts will realize what a fallacy you want to defend. You have yet to give the 1st shred of evidence of anything you claim, and it is debunked already. Good job.
Hoffnung
i found this site hoping to read topics submitted by jw's so i could learn more, but it just seems to be everyone else here except them.
just about every topic and member is just bashing jw's and their teachings.
this site should be renamed "jwbashertrolls.net".
Hi Trthskr,
Just as many others before, I am an actual Witness. I am still in, mostly for family reasons. I have paid my price in disappointments & emotional hardship, but I am not angry or bitter with individuals who want to defend the organization, or what they believe, it is just such a waste of time & energy in serving men and not God. God or his spirit is not present in most congregations, I could observe that myself over and over again. If you need some thought-provoking ideas, please read Shelby s (AGuest) contribution. I give you one of my own too.
One thing I found personally extremely disturbing about the organization, is the insertion of "Jehovah" in the Greek Scriptures in many places where this is absolutely incorrect. The classic explanation is that it comes from quotes from the Hebrew scriptures used by Paul, Luke etc. If you take it upon you to examine that claim, you will find that from the 200+ occasions where Jehovah is written in the Greek Scriptures in the NWT, on more than half of these, there is no quote of the Hebrew scriptures at ALL. In many occasions replacing Jehovah with the actual greek word ""Kyrios" reading this same scripture in its context would clearly show that "Jesus" is identified with this word. This did not happen by accident or mistake, but it is an intentional changing of what the bible says. Interesting to know they are always accusing others from doing just that, being guilty themselves. what God thinks about that you can read in Rev 22:18, 19
Concerning this subject, I heard that on the new 5 day elders school, elders are taught that the use of Jehovah in the greek scriptures come from Hebrew versions (translations) of the Greek Scriptures. Interesting idea to explore too. As you certainly know, there are many old Greek Manuscripts found from the Greek scriptures, some dating back to the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th century. In all these 1000s of manuscripts there is not one single occurrence of Jehovah or the Tetragrammaton, not even one. On the other hand, the hebrew translations are all from 13th, 15 or 18th century, so way younger. You find the list and years in the Study Bible & Kindom Interlinear. And they are translations of the Greek Text where the name did not occur, not even once. They are not copies of a Hebrew original. If the Tetragrammaton appears in these Hebrew translations, then these are insertions, alterations of the original text, from Jews who had problems with some divine qualities of Jesus, which were explicitly stated in the Greek text. How reliable is a translation from a such an alterated bible?
What is more reliable, a Greek text from a few years after the original writings (dont forget many manuscripts are available), or a translation from at least a 1000 years later? It is obvious that the Greek text is more reliable. If one has an interpretation, this should be left on the side in a footnote or so, but not in a document that you call a translation.
Maybe you believe these changes are small and insignificant. They are not. The bible clearly states in more than one occasion: Salvation is alone through Jesus. If the organization would be teaching the truth, that is what you would read in its publications. But recent issues of the watchower have clearly stated that Salvation is through "obedience to the Faithful and Discreet Slave", drawing the attention and the reverence that should go to Jesus, away from him and to themselves. So in fact, whatever you do for or on behalf of Jehovahs Witnesses, you are serving an organization that is putting Gods True Savior in the shadow, and so you are working against God. mere numbers of active witnesses dont prove much, because the Mormons and 7th day adventists can show you similar numbers, unless you think they have Gods spirit too.
Maybe you think the writing comite or the governing body do not know this. Trust me they do. All this info is widely available since a long time, and many honesthearted ones have written to the society for explanation. Some of these letters and the replies of the Society are on the internet.
The Society wrote long time ago: "religion is a racket and a snare". With every issue of the Watchtower they prove that it is true. What will you do now? in Acts it is written that the noble-minded carefully examined the scripture. Please do so. So not take my words or the society s for face value, but examine in depth what I just wrote, and you will see. Have fun.
Hoffnung
