Atheism is likely as old as Religious thinking - thinkers often doubted the existence of supernatural beings.

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

i've only just discovered an important book on the topic of atheism was published in 2015. it's title is, "battling the gods: atheism in the world.

" by tim whitmarsh, professor of greek culture at the uk's university of cambridge.. whitmarsh reviews a 1000 years of greek/roman writings and can demonstrate that the surviving writings of many famous ancient authors discussed disbelief in the god(s).that alone casts doubts on the concept many 'believers' today promote, that a belief in divinities is hard wired into the brain.

and, just as clearly, atheism is not just a modern view.. whitmarsh argues, " that early societies were far more capable than many since of containing atheism within the spectrum of what they considered normal.

fulltimestudent

slimboyfat: I had anyway thought that belief and non-belief have a long and paired history.

I'm inclined to agree with you, as generally we agree/disagree once a proposition is placed before us. Sounds a bit silly arguing that there is no god, if no-one around us is proclaiming a belief in a god.

Since we have absolutely no idea as to when the concept of a god first arrived in human thought during the long process of human evolution, we really cant argue as to when a denial of that proposition was first argued. All we can do (in archaeology) is examine the first traces of belief in some form of god.

SBF: I think some atheists have this notion that at one time everyone believed in God(s) but that with the advent of the enlightenment atheism has steadily grown and will eclipse belief.

Yes, maybe, but I've also seen some 'believers' argue in a similar way. Generally, west Asian religion makes that claim. God(s) created men, they believed, and then possibly rebelled. In Christian mythology, surely Adam and his family always believed in a 'god.'

SBF: At the moment the proportion of atheists appears to be going down not up. This is because believers have much higher fertility than atheists.

An interesting claim.Of course, the numbers accepting the truth of any claim has little to do with the truth of the claim. Even if there was only one dissenter to any claim, he could still be correct, and those who accepted the claim wrong.

Do you have statistics for that? I would genuinely be interested in knowing as to how the statistic collectors arrived at that conclusion. Was it a world-wide survey? Did they attempt to measure the cognitive skills of the believers at the same time.

If the statistical survey included Islamic and Indian believers, I could see a certain truth in the stats, although the concept of divinity would vary widely. And, if it included buddhists, and since buddhists may have very strange concepts of what a god is (e.g. they can die) are they really theists? Although, I guess their claim that humans can become supernatural beings and can 'save' others, as in the Pure land beliefs of Mahayana buddhism. Therefore I guess that buddhist teachings have to be seen as a form of theism.

Buddhists who follow this form may believe that if you call on the name of the Amitabha buddha when you are dying, he will come to you and take you to his 'Sukhavati Pure Land' (Actually it may be that every buddha has a pure land) I just happen to have focused on the Amitabha buddha in my studies. because his pure land is very much like the 'city of god' in Revelation 21 and 22. When I studied this and found that the concept of a 'pure land' actually preceded Christianity and that Buddhists had visited the west, I couldn't help wondering whether the author of Revelation had heard of this buddhist teaching and decided to incorporate it into that christian document.

The Amitābha buddha and his attendant bodhisattvas, Avalokiteśvara (on the right) and Mahāsthāmaprāpta (left)

10

Chapter 16 New Boy 50 years a Watchtower Slave

by new boy in

jw
friends

chapter 16. the tour .

my three days of housekeeping duty were over and i reported to the bethel office the next morning.

it was customary then get a tour of both the factory and the bethel home.

fulltimestudent

Grin! memories... In the first residential school ( we got to stay bethel for 2 weeks) for elders that I can recall.I was assigned to work a couple of hours each day in the laundry, testing my humility, I guess. I was assigned to work under an elderly sister. The highlight was her embarrassment at explaining to me that I had to inspect every sheet and all the men's u/pants for semen stains and spray the offending patch (Jude verse 23 NWT) with pre-wash spray.

I also ran into a problem with an elderly brother (he'd been in Bethel before WW2 and had lived there during the Aust. Army occupation of the Strathfield Bethel). Being real conscientious, I'd get up early to study and he counselled me on not wasting the electricity

7

Atheism is likely as old as Religious thinking - thinkers often doubted the existence of supernatural beings.

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

i've only just discovered an important book on the topic of atheism was published in 2015. it's title is, "battling the gods: atheism in the world.

" by tim whitmarsh, professor of greek culture at the uk's university of cambridge.. whitmarsh reviews a 1000 years of greek/roman writings and can demonstrate that the surviving writings of many famous ancient authors discussed disbelief in the god(s).that alone casts doubts on the concept many 'believers' today promote, that a belief in divinities is hard wired into the brain.

and, just as clearly, atheism is not just a modern view.. whitmarsh argues, " that early societies were far more capable than many since of containing atheism within the spectrum of what they considered normal.

fulltimestudent

I've only just discovered an important book on the topic of atheism was published in 2015. It's title is, "Battling the Gods: Atheism in the World." by Tim Whitmarsh, Professor of Greek Culture at the UK's University of Cambridge.

Whitmarsh reviews a 1000 years of Greek/Roman writings and can demonstrate that the surviving writings of many famous ancient authors discussed disbelief in the God(s).That alone casts doubts on the concept many 'believers' today promote, that a belief in divinities is hard wired into the brain. Clearly it is not! And, just as clearly, atheism is not just a modern view.

Whitmarsh argues, " that early societies were far more capable than many since of containing atheism within the spectrum of what they considered normal."
"Rather than making judgements based on scientific reason, these early atheists were making what seem to be universal objections about the paradoxical nature of religion – the fact that it asks you to accept things that aren't intuitively there in your world. The fact that this was happening thousands of years ago suggests that forms of disbelief can exist in all cultures, and probably always have."
The book argues that disbelief is actually "as old as the hills". Early examples, such as the atheistic writings of Xenophanes of Colophon (c.570-475 BCE) are contemporary with Second Temple-era Judaism, and significantly predate Christianity and Islam. Even Plato, writing in the 4th Century BCE, said that contemporary non-believers were "not the first to have had this view about the gods."

You can inspect the chapters etc on the Amazon web-site: https://www.amazon.com/Battling-Gods-Atheism-Ancient-World/dp/0307958329

Whitmarsh suggests that the structure of Greek society, that is, a multitude of semi-independent city states, each with its own set of divinities and no over-riding authority that enforced belief encouraged independent thinking. He notes that this changed when, in the 4th century CE, Roman emperors accepted Christianity, and ...

Quote: the polytheistic societies that generally tolerated it were replaced by monotheistic imperial forces that demanded an acceptance of one, "true" God. Rome's adoption of Christianity in the 4th Century CE was, he says, "seismic", because it used religious absolutism to hold the Empire together.
Most of the later Roman Empire's ideological energy was expended fighting supposedly heretical beliefs – often other forms of Christianity. In a decree of 380, Emperor Theodosius I even drew a distinction between Catholics, and everyone else – whom he classed as dementes vesanosque ("demented lunatics"). Such rulings left no room for disbelief.

In the course of my studies, I found that, according to surviving documents, ancient Indian thinkers sometimes expressed doubts as to the existence of imagined supernatutural beings.

And in early China, in the mid-third century to early-fourth century CE, A Chinese thinker Guo Xiang, expressed these thoughts on the topic, after a discussion on the topic of whether there is a creator or not, concludes:

Hence everything creates itself without the direction of any creator ... This is the norm of the universe.

7

FUN. What fun?

by VW.org in

i'll have some of that bread, yes and some of that red wine.

not bad give me some more red please.

give me the bottle and go away.

fulltimestudent

VW,org : I'll have ... yes and some of that red wine.

Well, not at the meeting, but maybe you could take the nearly full bottle home, and with a few trusted mates, have as much as you want and a few more bottles if you like ... (and, even complain about the selected speaker's lousy talk) - grin!!!

OH! and your kids could finish off the unleavened bread, and then complain that it did not taste very good ...

And the wives, in the kitchen, could bitch about some other sisters lousy dress sense.

Best part of the evening, in retrospect.

32

Jehovahs Witnesses and Babylon The Great.Why the Emphasis on the R.C.Church and not on Islam.

by smiddy in

i was thinking back to when the book babylon the great has fallen gods kingdom rules.was published many years ago when it was believed religion was declining in the world.. the book took exception to the r.c.church as the worst of christendom substituting themselves for the kingdom of god on earth , the counterfeit kingdom i think they called them.vicar of christ on earth.. and while its true to some degree in western lands today that religion is declining as regards christendom it is not happening in non christian religions around the world.. which brings me to the unprcedented rise and spread of islam in the world today .. with the war in iraq ,syria ,etc,and the people fleeing these war torn countries to europe and elsewhere around the globe with refugees and asylum seekers the spread of islam in the short space of time now beats any missionary projects conducted by christendom.. judaism ,christendom and islam all have their roots in the bible.the jews first then christians then muslims.. the bible only relates to the first two jews and christians and is completely silent about muslims.even in prophecy.. the book mentioned earlier btggkr nowhere mentions islam or muslims.as if they didnt even exist ,yet today they equal in numbers to all of christendoms religions.. islam today is by far a greater threat to christianity and especially to jehovahs witnesses than anything the roman catholic church ever posed before.. obviously the holy bible and the holy spirit or jehovahs chosen people the jehovahs witnesses never did forsee the rise and influence of the religion of islam in todays world.. the bible is completely silent about islam or the rise of muslims on the world stage.. could it be that they could no more predict the future than i could ?.

the wtb&ts the publishing house of jehovahs witnesses have for the past 100 years have continually attacked the roman catholic religion and portrayed them in an unfavourable light.time after time in mags and books,.

how many times have the wtb&ts attacked and challenged the religion of islam and muslims and condemned them as a principle member of babylon the great the empire of false religion.. to this day jehovahs witnesses cannot freely go door to door preaching their message in muslim dominated countries where proselytism is forbidden.

fulltimestudent

smiddy: Which brings me to the unprcedented rise and spread of Islam in the world today .

Well, it may look 'unprecedented,' but the initial rise of Islam was actually far more impressive

In 624 CE the Mediterranean world looked like this:

You can see the tiny patch of green in what is now Saudi Arabia and see the start of Islamic influence. By far the most important Empire is the Christian Eastern Roman (Byzantine). In fact Christianity's most important centres were concentrated in western Asia.The second most important empire was Sasanian Iran, nearly as powerful, and in fact (without the rise of Islam) likely to have been (at that stage) at least the equal of the Eastern Roman Empire. Lots of Christians there too, but it was the source of Zoroastrianism which had already influenced Judaism and possibly the development of Christianity.it could be argued that it also influenced Indian thought,

(the map is from the web-site, Historical Atlas of the Mediterrean: http://explorethemed.com/RiseIslam.asp

--------------------------------------------------------------

Now take a look at a similar map, that shows the unprecedented spread of Islam in less that 150 years (750 CE):

See the web-site, Oxford Islamic Studies online:

http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t253/e17

And just a year later (751 CE) a battle between China's Tang dynasty and the Islamic Arab Abbasid Caliphate at the Talas River, (on the border of contemporary Kazakhstan and Kyrgystan) saw the Chinese forces defeated and the Abbasid's gain control of the wealth of the western Silk road Trading Network.

But the history of Islam is not one of unity - within the Islamic areas, ambitious men often overthrew the existin government and created new empires. At the same time Arab traders criss-crossed Asia, and helped the spread of Islam. And Islamic scholars preserved much of the wisdom of ancient Greece and added their own (sometimes brilliant) scholarship.

This last map development shows the further development of Islam. But there is much more to the story of why we have the current crisis on our hands.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0VdJAgLRoE

But I would argue that Islam peaked long ago.

22

How smart were the ancients?

by Coded Logic in

growing up as a jw, i always thought the ancients were scientific morons who knew next to nothing.

ashamedly, i used to run around citing isaiah 40:22 as proof of the bible's 'divine authorship' because it talked about "the circle of the earth".

as though this were somehow an unknowable before spaceflight.

fulltimestudent

Xanthippe: Yeah google Atomists. The ancient Greeks were incredible.

Agreed. Reading of the conclusions of Leucippus or Democritus, both of whom lived in the city of Abdera, it's difficult not to be impressed by their intuitive reasoning and their conclusions.

Of course, its difficult to be absolutely sure as much of their writings have been lost, but sufficient documentation remains for us to follow their reasoning. Basically, Leucippas proposed that the world was ultimately made up of things which did not have qualities (like wood as an example). He concluded that if you continued to divide any substance, you would eventually reach things which were not further divisible. He called these things atoma i,e, indivisible. He was wrong on that point as we now understand, but to conceptualise about invisible atoms was a huge step in human knowledge, and even though, the Israelites/Jews lived in an area that was on a trade route between Greek cities and Egypt, nothing that is extant tells us that the Israelites/Jews ever learnt a thing from those early Greek thinkers.

A publication by Oxford World's Classics, called The First Philosophers: The Presocratics and the Sophists (trans: Robin Wakefield) contains an excellent chapter on the process of deductive thinking that led to the above conclusions.

Another publication in the same series, by the ancient thinker Lucretius, On the Nature of the Universe, (trans. Ronald Melville) may similarly impress you.Lucretius composed his thoughts in verse, which makes it all the more impressive (to me, anyway) Lucretius cites the works of many other early thinkers, so its particularly valuable.

4

How to lock down the internet - As in the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea)

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

how do you allow a localised and controlled use of an intranet, allowing people to access a controlled flow of information, but preventing them from accessing information from the external internet (world wide web)?.

not long ago, computer engineers at enno rey netzwerke in the german city of heidelberg were able to examine an ullim (nk brand name) tablet.

what they discovered is that all the (western) efforts to leak anti-regime information into nk, to take advantage of a perceived increase in computing in nk, are likely useless as the regime's scientists and engineers have been able to modify the hardware and software to virtually close off information not approved by the regime.

fulltimestudent

How do you allow a localised and controlled use of an intranet, allowing people to access a controlled flow of information, but preventing them from accessing information from the external internet (World wide web)?

Not long ago, computer engineers at Enno Rey Netzwerke in the German city of Heidelberg were able to examine an Ullim (NK brand name) tablet. What they discovered is that all the (western) efforts to leak anti-regime information into NK, to take advantage of a perceived increase in computing in NK, are likely useless as the regime's scientists and engineers have been able to modify the hardware and software to virtually close off information not approved by the regime.

Starting from a standard Hoozo Z100 tablet made by a Shenzhen company, NK engineers removed the communications hardware, so that to access the NK intranet, users need a plug-in dongle. This is the first level of control.

The next level is software called Red Flag which takes a screenshot every time a user opens an app, it also records browsing history, the internal identification number of the tablet and ensures the core system has not been tampered with.

Another app called Trace Viewer works with the first app and permits the recorded history of use for the tablet to be examined.

The next level, limits apps installation to officially approved apps.

The next stage, part of the NK's Red Star OS (a version of LInux) "watermarks" files, so that if a file is shared, an inspector is able to identify how it spread.

Another level of control restricts Media compatibility. If a user tries to open a file, the tablet checks to see if it is an approved version. If it's not, the machine will not open the file. So no-one can take a foreign file and open it on their Ullim tablet.

All these measure were apparently in place by 2013, so any effort by outsiders to supply anti regime information would not be accessible.

Do all these measures work. The German engineers think so. They conclude:

Quote: "These controls effectively keep the sharing of most information in check and leave people to resort to old-fashioned word-of-mouth."

Full story available at: http://www.38north.org/2017/03/mwilliams030317/

NB. 38 North is a NK watcher web-site.

16

Warning: A. Vogel (JW-run organization) treatments popping up in the US

by Anony Mous in

i've noticed a few of my local grocery stores are stocking a. vogel homeopathy products.

a. vogel is a company ran primarily by jehovah's witnesses, the "brains" behind the operation, alfred vogel, has since died but he claimed to be one of the anointed.

the bolle family (co-founders of the company) is a well-known, (now very wealthy) family in the netherlands and there have been significant "contributions" in the past from the company to the watchtower organization.. alfred vogel was a well-known conman, he claimed blood transfusions would change someone's personality, he claimed to have studied native american herbal healing methods... from a native american tourist photo-op actor.

fulltimestudent

Ha! A blast from the past!

I'v e forgotten the year, but we had an international convention in Sydney and Vogel was there. I know because that year i was given an assignment to look after transportation for international visitors, and late one night (we still had night sessions) and as I was about to go home, this guy with a German accent turns up and wanted transport to his hotel. The organised buses had already left, so I had to take him to his hotel myself, before driving a long way in the opposite direction. Then the following sunday I had to give a PT at Engadine Cong. in the south of Sydney, and Bro Vogel turns up again. Why? Well because he thought Engadine in Sydney may be like the Engadine Valley in Switzerland. I doubt he saw a resemblance.

So that was my brush with fame!

Vogel, I believe, had been disfellowshipped at one stage, perhaps over a dispute about 'soul.' But at the time I met him, he was in good standing, and had produced a booklet for the Society on the use of Naturopathy, in the care of tropical diseases, for the WTS missionary field.

At somewhere around that time I also met a brother and his wife from Tahiti, Vogel had stayed with them for some 6 weeks. They were impressed, as he could talk for hours about the plants on the Island.

And, some of the brothers here in Australia were involved with him in the baking and sale of Vogel's bread in Australia. Some of the Bioforce (tradename) "medicines" can be found in certain pharmacies and healthfood shops here in Sydney at least.

I remember, near every German brother I ever met, knew about Vogel and possibly had his book, 'The Nature Doctor,' I think that Vogel could more accurately be described as a naturopath, rather than a homeopath. And, to the extent (as is being evidenced in medical science) that a plant based diet is good for us, then Vogel's thoughts may be helpful.

I think that in Europe generally, Homeopathy is still held in quite high regard. There used to be a number of hospitals in England (and one here in Sydney too) that included the word Homeopathic in their names.

We can see an historical development in the history of medicine and homeopathy. At the time Hahnemann developed his ideas, ordinary medical help was useless. One could argue that then, homeopathy was something of an advancement. The idea of testing the results of a certain therapeutic substance was a good one, but research never stands still, and many of the complaints about alternative medicine are likely well founded

40

Did Jesus pre exist? Yes or no?

by UnshackleTheChains in

when i first became a witness, i always found the teaching about jesus being the arch angel michael hard to swallow.

i did however believe that jesus pre existed as a master worker alongside god (the first of his creation).. but now everything is brought into question having watched anthony buzzard explain why jesus could not have pre existed as it is impossible to pre exist yourself.

also the fact that it all sounds contradictory to suggest, he was already alive millions of years before he was transferred to mary's womb to be born as a human - the son of man?.

fulltimestudent

A poster claimed:

"Christianity could never have spread so quickly in the first century given the impact he had made during his short life here on earth."

How quickly did 'Christianity' spread in the first century? And how many followers did it gain?

There is no way that we can gain any real idea of the numbers of followers, in either the first, the second or the third centuries.

We can though, I believe, establish how early christianity spread? At first, 'christianity' was not much more than a Jewish sect and it seems to have had a specific appeal to many Jews who wondered why the Romans could defeat them and hold them in subjection, if their god was the true, all-powerful deity they imagined him to be. So irrespective of why they believed, the fact is that the greatest increase was along the Jewish communities along the network of the so-called 'Silk Road' (condemned so enthusiastically in Revelation 18:11 >. These Jewish communities also had groups of gentiles who associated with the Jewish communities.

3

The Legend of the Death of Arius – Imagination and Propaganda in the Development of Early Christianity.

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

the legend of the death of arius – imagination and propaganda in the development of early christianity.. .

as a jw, i, of course, soon learnt the standard jw belief that there was no such thing as a triune god.

whereas most other christians believe in a triune god.

fulltimestudent

Muehlberger, develops her analysis of the legend in three sections. First she describes the earliest surviving appearance of the story of Arius’ death and traces the changes that were added to it in late antiquity. The version that ultimately became the dominant one had Arius dying near the famous porphyry column that stood at the centre of the Forum of Constantine, a space constructed as part of the dedication of Constantinople in 337 CE .

The majority of the additions made to the story were first seen in Christian histories written in or centred on Constantinople during the first half of the fifth century.

The second section of the article explains the context in which these additions were generated: the late ancient discourse regarding Christian orthodoxy and the co-option, even merger, of Christian and imperial ritual in that city.

And the third Muehlberger explains why the story was developed. In her conclusion she offers some thoughts on imagined spaces and their representation in antiquity.

Its interesting that the development of the doctrine supported by Athanasius, became so dependent on imagined stories that reflected other bible stories.

fulltimestudent

Posts by fulltimestudent

The majority of the additions made to the story were first seen in Christian histories written in or centred on Constantinople during the first half of the fifth century.

The second section of the article explains the context in which these additions were generated: the late ancient discourse regarding Christian orthodoxy and the co-option, even merger, of Christian and imperial ritual in that city.

And the third Muehlberger explains why the story was developed. In her conclusion she offers some thoughts on imagined spaces and their representation in antiquity.

Its interesting that the development of the doctrine supported by Athanasius, became so dependent on imagined stories that reflected other bible stories.