Previously to the KIT, the Society had used an older interlinear translation, The Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson. Once they had their New World Translation, they decided to use that as the basis for their own interlinear. So I think, similar to their attitude toward Bible dictionaries, "We've got our own now - you don't need to use anyone else's." But, like you say, the average JW has no use for any interlinear translation.
Justin
JoinedPosts by Justin
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Why was the Kingdom Interlinear Translation published?
by VM44 inwhy did the watchtower publish the kit?
(kingdom interlinear translation).
both in 1969 and 1985 they came out with editions of this greek language translation of the scriptures.
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Was Russell innocent from blame of creature worship reguarding himself?
by frankiespeakin in.
rr, feels russell got a bum rap.
i read some quotes of russell's that make me say he is to blame to a large extent by the things he wrote and who he allowed to write in "his" magaszine.
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Justin
The following is taken from Studies in the Scriptures, Volume IV, The Battle of Armageddon, Study XII, "Our Lord's Great Prophecy," written by Charles T. Russell. It can be found at http://www.agsconsulting.com/htdbnon/htdb0118.htm .
Dispensing of Food to the Household
--Matt. 24:45-51; Luke 12:42-46--
"Who then is the faithful and prudent servant, whom his Master has placed over his household to give them food in due season? Happy that servant whom his Master, on coming, shall find thus employed! Indeed I say to you that he will appoint him over all his stores of provisions." Matt. 24:45-51; Luke 12:42-46
The intimation here seems to be, that at the particular time indicated by the prophecy--namely, during the Lord's presence, and at the time of the gathering of the elect--our Lord, the great Servant of his people, will make choice of one channel for dispensing the meat in due season, though other channels or "fellow-servants" will be used in bringing the food to the "household." But the servant is merely a steward, and liable to be removed at any moment, should he fail to fully and duly acknowledge in every particular, the Master--the great Servant of God and his people--"the Messenger of the Covenant"--Christ.
Faithfulness on the part of said steward (both to the "Master" and to "his fellow-servants" and "the household") will be rewarded by his continuance as steward; so long as he serves faithfully, he may continue, and may serve the household of faith with things new and old--meat in due season--to the end; bringing forth all the precious things of divine provision. But if unfaithful he will be deposed entirely and put into outer darkness, while presumably another would take the place, subject to the same conditions.
To our understanding this would not imply that "that servant" or steward, used as a channel for the circulation of the "meat in due season," would be the originator of that meat, nor inspired, nor infallible. Quite to the contrary, we may be sure that whoever the Lord will so use, as a truth-distributing agent, will be very humble and unassuming, as well as very zealous for the Master's glory; so that he would not think of claiming authorship or ownership of the truth, but would merely dispense it zealously, as his Master's gift, to his Master's "servants" and "household." [D614]
Any other spirit and course would surely work a change of steward. This is detailed by our Lord as follows:
"But if that servant shall [become] wicked, and [losing faith] say in his heart, My Master delays his coming; and shall smite his fellow-servants, and eat and drink with the intemperate [of their false doctrines], the Master of that servant will be present in a day that he looketh not for, and in an hour that he is not aware of, and shall cut him off [from being his servant] and will appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matt. 24:48-51
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Anybody know this? CTR historical knowledge needed
by Sherwood ini think jesus was the first to introduce examining the scriptures with "types and anti-types" when he stated that elijah's returned was john the baptist (matthew 11:14).
being that jesus is the 'firstborn from the dead' (rev 1:5), this was not a resurrection of elijah, but a type to be examined thru the bible's history.
btw, ctr taught consistently in the wt and publications up to 1916 the examination of types and anti-types.
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Justin
With regards to Philo of Alexandria, an older contemporary of Jesus, I had thought about the possibility of his using "types" to explain the Old Testament. However, Philo used idealized types in the sense that an object or person in the material world reflected an ideal. I understand that he taught the tabernacle in the wilderness was a picture of the universe. So these would not be prophetic types such as used by the New Testament writers.
Luke's account about the dialogue between the risen Christ and the two disciples on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24:13-31) indicates that the understanding of the so-called Messianic prophecies came to the community after the resurrection, and most of these prophecies are understood typologically. So the ideas that Jesus was typified by Moses, by David, by the Passover lamb, or by the High Priest have been with us since the beginning of Christianity. We can even say that the idea of time being typological is very old, for the Epistle of Barnabus (second century) is the first Christian work to use the seven-day week as a type of the 7,000 years, the last 1,000 being the Millennium. Nor does it seem strange that certain historical events came to be considered as only typical fulfillments. (Was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE only a type of a greater destruction yet to come?) So to the question, Did anyone use types from Jesus to Russell, the answer would have to be, Yes.
That being the case, it must be said that Russell used typology in a very rigid and demanding way. He thought that specific dates in the first century had their counterparts in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. (29 CE paralleled 1874, 33 CE = 1878, 36 CE = 1881, 70 CE =1914) For example, because Jesus was resurrected in 33, the dead anointed ones must have been raised in 1878 (the parallel date). From what I have read, I don't find this kind of thinking in William Miller. Miller's understanding of the time prophecies in Daniel culminating in the Second Coming in 1843 were straightforward calculations and involved no typology. I do find Russell's sort of thinking beginning to surface with Nelson Barbour. So if we're talking about extreme typology (for lack of a better expression), then it seems to have arisen with an Adventist offshoot that culminated in the Bible Student Movement and is still present today in the JWs. Unless someone has a better explanation.
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WhoWhere was F&DS class between 1st century and 1914?
by badboy inany ideas what wt says on this matter ?
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Justin
The reason why I bring up the "seven churches" theory is because the modern JWs have no good answer when asked for links with previous generations. The messengers, if such they were, were not the FDS, but the current official definition of the FDS is that it is the composite Christian congregation of anointed ones who feed each other along with (in modern times) the "other sheep." Of course, we all know that the FDS is just a front used to prop up the authority of Brooklyn, and it has been discussed many times in this forum that it has nothing to do with the average JW who may claim to be anointed. That being the case, the theory of the "messengers" at least pointed to historical personages who were thought to have had the truth in their own time.
It's true, of course, that people such as the Waldenses would not identify themselves with JWs today. As far as Luther is concerned, the claim has been made that people who practiced the truth which was available in their own generation were God's servants at that time. They were living before the harvest. But now the light has supposedly gotten brighter, and today one must be in association with God's visible organization. This is the claim that is made.
I believe there was once a quote given in this forum wherein the Society attempted to leave its readers with the impression that there was a faithful slave throughout the centuries that has been feeding the domestics in the same way that the Society claims to do today. That is nonsense. But at least we can realize that these questions have various facets, and the Society does not always express itself consistently in its own bests interests.
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WhoWhere was F&DS class between 1st century and 1914?
by badboy inany ideas what wt says on this matter ?
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Justin
There is no real definitive WT answer except the "wheat among the weeds." At one time, however, the Society subscribed to the theory that the seven churches of Revelation are prophetic types of seven ages in church history, from the first century to the Second Coming. While some of these churches (according to this theory) portray conditions in the "nominal" church rather than the true church, at least the seven angels (or messengers) of the churches would have to represent the true church during their own day and age. Starting with perhaps the apostle John himself as the first messenger, candidates would include people like Arius (for rejecting the Trinity), Peter Waldo (and the Waldneses during the "Dark Ages"), Luther (for starting the Reformation), and of course, the seventh messenger, C.T. Russell. This theory was held to in The Finished Mystery (published in 1917) but has since been abandoned which, in a way, is unfortunate because it leaves this whole area of true worship "between the times" as it were in limbo, with no substantial support.
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A reading from William Miller
by Justin inwilliam miller was the founder of the advent movement in the usa, the forerunner of the bible students and jehovah's witnesses, as well as others such as the seventh day adventists.
you may now read his "25 reasons christ must come in 1843," first published in 1838, but going to: http://www.gospelcom.net/chi/pastwords/chl028.shtml .
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Justin
William Miller was the founder of the Advent movement in the USA, the forerunner of the Bible Students and Jehovah's Witnesses, as well as others such as the Seventh Day Adventists. You may now read his "25 Reasons Christ Must Come in 1843," first published in 1838, but going to: http://www.gospelcom.net/chi/pastwords/chl028.shtml .
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If You Could've Remained A JW & Not Be Shunned In Any Way, Would You?
by minimus inif the society decided to not shun persons who were weak, who disagreed or who simply didn't go to meetings and field service, would you still be a jw?
the catholics have all sorts of rules and regulations that should be obeyed yet if one doesn't abide by the law, they are generally never excommunicated.
if the witnesses decided to "just be there" for the "brotherhood", i'll bet that many would not be on this site.
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Justin
To say that some would still be there if it were not for the harsh policies, so in effect, they're still "in" is to judge them unfairly. Without the rigid control the whole character of the religion would change. If it were "liberalized" (which it won't be), many would attend meetings simply to be with their friends and would feel that going through some sort of ritual (answering questions at meetings?) would be enough. If the average JW could say, as Nathan Knorr is reported as saying shortly before his death, that they believe in Jehovah God, in Christ Jesus, in the resurrection - but this 1914 business they're not sure of - then the JWs would in effect be like other religious groups which do not require a high degree of committment from the membership. But this is not the case now, and it is the organization as it actually is that people feel compelled to leave.
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Anybody know this? CTR historical knowledge needed
by Sherwood ini think jesus was the first to introduce examining the scriptures with "types and anti-types" when he stated that elijah's returned was john the baptist (matthew 11:14).
being that jesus is the 'firstborn from the dead' (rev 1:5), this was not a resurrection of elijah, but a type to be examined thru the bible's history.
btw, ctr taught consistently in the wt and publications up to 1916 the examination of types and anti-types.
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Justin
Christians have always used the Old Testament (Hebrew Scriptures) in a typological manner.
To quote an old Easter hymn, which uses the Passover in this way:
"Where the Paschal blood is poured, death's dark angel sheaths his sword; Israel's hosts triumphant go through the wave that drowns the foe. Praise we Christ, whose Blood was shed, Paschal Victim, Paschal Bread; with sincerity and love, eat we manna from above."
Without the use of typology, the Old Testament would have no lasting meaning for Christians.
Here's another hymn which uses Jerusalem or Zion as a type: "Glorious things of thee are spoken, Zion, city of our God; He whose word cannot be broken formed thee for his own abode."
The journey of Israel through the wilderness and the land of Canaan are also used as types: "Through the night of doubt and sorrow onward goes the pilgrim band, singing songs of expectation, marching to the Promised Land."
Hope this helps.
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Trinity
by XBEHERE ini still dont believe in the trinity doctrine completely.
lately though i have been reading other translations and listening to ex-jw testimonials online.
granted most of these testimonials are from ex-jw, born again christians.
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Justin
If you want to understand the Trinity, read C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity, a book which had been around for years. Lewis conveyed very simple but profound ideas. For example, Jesus is the only-begotten Son of God. That being the case, since what man begets (procreates, generates) is man, then what God begets is God. Whether you want to say "a God" or simply "God," the One begotten is a real divine person, not simply one who is called "god." Likewise, the Holy Spirit is the Love between the Father and Son, but is so real that a Third Person is involved.
Yet, as there is only one Father, there is only one God. One of the ancient writers (Irenaeus) compared the Son and Spirit to the arms of the Father.
Some posters have tried to convey the formal concepts behind the Trinity doctrine, but what is overlooked is that, for many Christians, Jesus has actually replaced the Father and is for them the only God they want. Of what use is it to convince people that "Jesus is God" if God is really a Trinity? Isn't that misleading? That's why, even though after leaving JWs I became a Trinitarian Christian, I finally realized that the churches never really explain the Trinity but are simply content to worship Jesus. So I think the real issue facing JWs is simply the fact that they belong to an organization which exerts rigid control over their lives, and they must decide what they are going to do about it.
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CTR,Pittsburg,1878
by badboy in.
it is reputed that some followers of ctr gathered at a bridge in pittsburg for the end of the world.. it is also alleged that ctr was there in white robes.
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Justin
So if there's any truth to this story at all, it would have occurred early in Russell's career and involved the disappointment over Barbour's dates - but not as late as 1914. The younger Russell (as well as Barbour) believed in what the fundamentalists still call "the rapture," or as they preferred to call it, the translation or "change" of the saints. The Lord had returned invisibly and the next event would be the deliverance of the church. When no visible event occurred, Russell claimed that it was invisible and would happen to each individual anointed one at their death (which is still the teaching today). It was expected that the remaining ones would all be killed in a final persecution, but I think it is possible that some may have still expected to be raptured contrary to the Pastor's teaching.