i thought that would get your attention.. i dont know if im being perverse here, but i seem to want one last confrontation with the jws.. i am out a good while now.
long enough to stop getting hellos on the street.
what those scumbags did to me before in thier meetings (old h20ers may remember) i still want to go at them again.. i was so depressed about things i really thought about suicide.
Makena1,
I was going to quote the part of your post that affected me most and decided not to. I'm afraid of dwelling on suicide because there are so many other fragile people out there. But your comments caused some old feeling to surface and I was inclined to pound on some walls myself. Glad to here you are coping.
Jst2laws
the thread on judicial committes reminded me of my last meeting.
as a jw elder.
a major rift had developed on the body of elders.
Back to last elders meetings:
My last meeting with the body of elders was not pretty. We had just had the Circuit Overseer’s visit. I had fought with him and twice counseled him for his lack of love in the way he handled matters. He had been after me since he came to the area because he had what he called a “file” on me and the body of elders. I was the most liberal (or moderate as Lee put it) but the body was very much in agreement.
The CO’s report was full of inaccuracies. It was so bad the CO could not get all of the service committee to sign it. So he had to read it to the entire body. One elder spoke up and said the report amounted to lying to the Governing Body. Two elders walked out of the meeting, besides me. He finally got the service committee to sign his lies with the agreement that he would make some changes to it, which he did not.
So my last meeting with the body I read the report to them and asked if they support what it said. Answer, unanimously NO! Then I asked what they intended to do about it. The majority answer was NOTHING! I asked the body how they could keep beating the friends over conscience matters while winking at slander, just because it involved the CO.
I shuck my head and told the body “this stinks”. A week later I gave them my letter of resignation, which laid out the wrongdoing of the CO that I was conscientiously protesting.
The body did nothing but send it in to the Society. The Society never even responded other then the rubber stamp.
Jst2laws
would any former elders like to share their experiences serving on judicial committees?
were your decisions subjective?
do you feel that the "system" works?
JT,
I agree. I remember Chuck Woody telling us we didn't need professionals to help our brothers and sisters: "you elders have everything the friends need, the Bible."
The 1500 plus KM school attendees went home with newly inflated confidence that God had given them the key to all problems. Yet this counsel contradicted what was in print at the time. When a pioneer sister got so bizarre that the local authorities were after her for child abuse I wrote the Society informing then that we use to encourage her to stay on her medication but now you seen to be saying they don’t need “Professional help”. They eventually removed her as a pioneer but never even addressed the BAD ADVISE we got at the KM school.
As you said: “in fact the instructors pound into thier heads that they are FULLY QUALIFIED”.
The quote from JR Brown I remember was the society defense for poor handling of child molesters. If only the average elder knew how much he is out on his own.
Jst2laws
would any former elders like to share their experiences serving on judicial committees?
were your decisions subjective?
do you feel that the "system" works?
Hello ItsJustMe
Quote: “Do you feel that the "system" works?”
If the objective is to help people feel Right with God, NO! The Bible teaching of Justification or feeling right with God is totally lost on Witnesses. Especially those who make a mistake and must face a ‘judicial committee’ of men who themselves do not feel ‘right with God’.
Quote: “some of their friends get DF'd for a certain wrongdoing, and then someone else who did the same thing would only get a private reproof.”
On this one I have to interject on unpopular thought. These men, as mislead as they are, look for what they consider evidence of “repentance”. Most, I believe, are willing to overlook or “show mercy” if the person appears to be repentant, showing some remorse. What they judge to be repentance results in their decision regardless of the type of wrong, if they are doing it by the book.
It appears the heart of the problem is at least two fold.
1 As JT explains, the men assigned to the task are not adequately trained.
2 The system is focused on judgment and punishment rather than on LOVE AND TOLERANCE.
This to me is more of the flaw in the system than the consistency issue you pointed out. If it appears that two people committed similar sins but one got a different judgment that is not really an indictment of a flawed system. The judges are focused on what they perceive to be the level of “repentance”.
The issue to me is WHO APPOINTED US AS JUDGES. When God’s word says “Stop judging:” lest you be judged, I think it is best to listen to God rather than men. I would rather focus on LOVE, which believes all things and bears all things.
I guess that’s why those of us here are EX elders.
Jst2laws
excerpts from the letter found in the barton family living room.
letter purportedly written by mark barton as read by henry county police chief jimmy mercer.
july 30, 1999. web posted at: 11:51 a.m. edt (1551 gmt).
Yes, I remember.
It is good to have you back RR.
I just finished the book, BLOOD CRIMES by Fred Rosen. This case you posted contrasted with the Freeman murders displays two extreme consequences of cult control.
While I am very upset at this moment I try to remind myself of the reality that people are dying unjustly everywhere in the world, sometimes at the rate of tens or hundreds of thousands. It is the disasters like this one that are close to home, or my heart, that really affect me, but perhaps that is only because of my limited focus. I dont know!
Jst2laws
went over to a disassociated witnesses house the other night,.
former org hatchet man,now as violently opposed to the org as he was, once, enslaved by them.. hes talkin "raymond franz says this...franz says that" all night.. it made me sick to my guts.. franz was pure borg heirachy, born and bred to power.. now hes opposed (if he aint dead by now)and these ex borg mind slaves are still listening to the guy like hes a repository of truth.. im not attacking ray franz,hes probably a nice guy,im just floating an idea.
what is a free mind?.
Hello Pubsinger,
You said:
"If what I'm reading is true, then alot of things I have believed for 30yrs are wrong; and the Organisation I believe to be God's Channel cannot be what it claims. However, if the things in these books are NOT true, then the books are worthless and possibly evil and vindictive."
I then went on 6mths of research to CHECK whether they were true or not. They were accurate. So I left to continue serving God without the WT"
Very good! Evaluate possibilities, research to obtain or verify facts, then choose a direction. I like the direction you chose, “to continue serving God without the WT”.
Jst2laws
exactly one year ago three other families joined us at our vacation home for a week of relaxation and stimulating conversation.
of the four men, three were elders and the other a ministerial servant.
together these four had 116 years as appointed servants.
Dino,
You said: “Hi Just2. When I read of your experiences earlier this year I was inspired to lurk no more and start posting”
And now you are up to 108 posts!! Truly a “lurker no more”.
Quote: “It sounds like you have true friends with you in this! That can mean so much at times like these.”
That is important. While only one of those original elders is local, it is good to have the others of the same mind. Then in a few months my wife started reading Ray F’s books and we have got the kids (ages 23, 22, 14) all with us too.
Now we have made many friends here and on e-mail lists who support each other.
Thanks for the encouragement and keep in touch.
Jst2laws
my votes:.
the best: as a group they're relatively color-blind (low to no incidence of racism among them ).. the worst: their stubborn refusal to see the good in anyone but themselves!.
what say you?
Room 213,
You said: as “a group they're relatively color-blind (low to no incidence of racism among them ).”
I often used that very point to demonstrate the fact that this was God’s Organization. I really felt that way until a brother in Far Rockaway accused me of being a racist. I had worse problems in Georgia.
In fairness, many rank and file witnesses truly love and respect without respect to race. If Harpo Carr (Harpo?? Freudian slip??) is to be believed, Wallace Ford and Malcome X also saw Witnesses as color blind. This was probably relative to the example of other churches.
Room213, I believe the way you felt about racism in the org was a reflection of the way YOU FELT ABOUT RACE. I didn’t see it because I didn’t feel it. I was ‘relatively color-blind’ as you probably were, so that’s what I saw.
Your comment, ‘relatively color-blind’ which has raised discussion, is not a fault but reflection of a quality. Whether or not it is a quality worthy of commending the WT Society is what is questioned.
I, for one, belief one unique thing about cults is they often minimize the differences in race while emphasizing a more preposterous bases for segregating THEMSELVES from the rest of humanity.
Jst2laws
went over to a disassociated witnesses house the other night,.
former org hatchet man,now as violently opposed to the org as he was, once, enslaved by them.. hes talkin "raymond franz says this...franz says that" all night.. it made me sick to my guts.. franz was pure borg heirachy, born and bred to power.. now hes opposed (if he aint dead by now)and these ex borg mind slaves are still listening to the guy like hes a repository of truth.. im not attacking ray franz,hes probably a nice guy,im just floating an idea.
what is a free mind?.
edward,
I met Ray and Cynthia for the first time over 30 years ago. Last time I spoke with them was two months ago. These are not people making anything off of anyone except a meager living doing what he can.
If I dont know someone, I am careful not to cast doubt on their motives. How about you?
Jst2laws
went over to a disassociated witnesses house the other night,.
former org hatchet man,now as violently opposed to the org as he was, once, enslaved by them.. hes talkin "raymond franz says this...franz says that" all night.. it made me sick to my guts.. franz was pure borg heirachy, born and bred to power.. now hes opposed (if he aint dead by now)and these ex borg mind slaves are still listening to the guy like hes a repository of truth.. im not attacking ray franz,hes probably a nice guy,im just floating an idea.
what is a free mind?.
Edward,
Quote: “Franz was pure borg heirachy, born and bred to power.
Now hes opposed (if he aint dead by now)and these ex borg mind slaves are still listening to the guy like hes a repository of truth.”
At least you acknowledge “hes probably a nice guy”. That part you got right.
He was at odds with the GB and thrown out by them because he was NOT “born and bred to power”. He actually had a conscience and in his position faced a “Crisis of Conscience”. He is not dead and is still a nice guy.
Quote: “These guys are still borg, just anti borg borg.
Still makin a living off their former power as slave masters…. Do your OWN research.
Just a thought that occurred to me, not an utterance of absolute opinion."
Help me understand this. You say “do your own research” and then your say “not an utterance of absolute opinion”. Why would you accuse a good person of “makin a living off their former power as slave masters” as if it is an a fact resulting form you research and then back off from responsibility with not an “absolute opinion”? Is it possible to research a matter to the point of making accusations without even coming to a corresponding opinion?
I don’t usually talk this way, but I think your research should go a little deeper before you cast doubt on those who sacrifice much for others.
Jst2laws
