I have renewed interest in reading WTS literature now that I have recently learned about rhetoric. It is fun to identify the logical fallacies, emotional appeals and questionable use of sources.
Posts by pirata
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5No pressure to read anymore!
by highdose ini realised today that life is so much more of a pleasure now that i can read what i what at my own place.. in the borg i had to constantly read read read the magazines , the latest books, the latest brochures, the meeting prep, the daily scripture and my own personal study.
most of the time i would just speed read in an effort to "get in done", how pathetic is that!?.
now days i can read as much or as little as i want.
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Watchtower making CDs of each Magazine Issue? What's with This?
by Room 215 inwifey comes home with cds of watchtower and cd issues; what, don't they expect jws to read hard copy anymore?.
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pirata
They still give audio CDs, but strongly encouarge JWs to download the MP3s instead because it's less cost. Also better for the environment not ordering a truckload of CDs that you only listen to once.
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pirata
Are we saying that some people just can't help it whilst others can. If you get caught on judgement day screwing to bad, if before your alright. How many people in the kingdom hall expect salvation although they have been immoral. They expect to be forgiven. Were they ignorant of God's view.
I think it is more the concept of repeat offending and if you feel "bad" about it. The timing issue is something I have wondered about myself, seems very arbitrary.
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pirata
As God is forgiveing and forgives those who have in the past i cant see it matters
Jude 1:4 (New International Version)
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about [a] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
My understanding of that scripture is that God forgives, but his should forgiveness should not be used as an excuse to do whatever we want.
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Has anyone ever asked a Catholic if they hate us like we are told they do?
by life is to short inevery since i was a little kid all i have heard is how the catholic's hate us, how they persecute us, even beat us in some third world country's.
they insight their members to hate us and pelt us with rocks, tar and feather us, on and on.
in fact rummer has it that in one small town by us the slit the tires of all the jw's cars in the late 60 when they were holding a ca.
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pirata
When Rutherford took the presidency, he wrote a ton of articles railing against the catholics. I have the "Golden Age" magazine form 1932-1937 and almost every secondsissue had an article against the catholics or aluminum (they seem to be his two pet peeves).
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Can you "fornicate" with your marriage mate? I've heard the WTBTS says that you can. Is this true?
by ultrabimbo inis it true that the current thinking of jehovah's witnesses is that you can "fornicate" with your marriage mate if you engage in sexual activity that is not approved by the writing department at bethel?
what are some examples?.
ultrabimbo.
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pirata
There hasn't been any newer printed light that I'm aware of that changes any of what's in the 2002 article.
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Can you "fornicate" with your marriage mate? I've heard the WTBTS says that you can. Is this true?
by ultrabimbo inis it true that the current thinking of jehovah's witnesses is that you can "fornicate" with your marriage mate if you engage in sexual activity that is not approved by the writing department at bethel?
what are some examples?.
ultrabimbo.
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pirata
*** g02 2/8 p. 10 Marriage Should Be a Permanent Bond ***
[Box on page 10]
DIVORCE AND SEPARATION
God, the Originator of marriage, designed it to be a permanent union. But is there any Scriptural reason for a person to divorce his or her mate—and one that would allow for the possibility of remarrying? Jesus addressed this matter by declaring: “I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except on the ground of fornication, and marries another commits adultery.” (Matthew 19:9) Sexual infidelity by a mate is the only ground for a divorce that will allow the innocent mate to remarry.
In addition, the Bible’s words at 1 Corinthians 7:10-16, while encouraging marriage mates to stay together, allow for separation. Some, after trying very hard to preserve their marriage, feel they have no choice but to separate. What can be acceptable Scriptural grounds for such a step?
One is willful nonsupport. When getting married, a husband assumes the responsibility of providing for his wife and children. The man who willfully fails to provide the material necessities of life “has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith.” (1 Timothy 5:8) So separation is possible.
Another is extreme physical abuse. So then, if a mate physically abuses his wife, the victim may separate. (Galatians 5:19-21; Titus 1:7) “Anyone loving violence [God’s] soul certainly hates.”—Psalm 11:5.
Another ground for separation is the absolute endangerment of a believer’s spirituality—one’s relationship with God. When a mate’s opposition, perhaps including physical restraint, has made it impossible to pursue true worship and has imperiled the believer’s spirituality, then some believers have found it necessary to separate.—Matthew 22:37; Acts 5:27-32.
However, if divorce is pursued under such circumstances, one would not be free to enter a new marriage. According to the Bible, the only legitimate ground for divorce that permits remarriage is adultery or “fornication.”—Matthew 5:32.
[Footnote]
See The Watchtower of November 1, 1988, pages 22-3, for a discussion of separation. -
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need words for my JW father
by alamb ini have been pointing out that the shunning doctrine is unscriptural and unloving (jw speak).
he texted that my whole family stayed in the "truth" it was me who left.. please give the concise words to answer him.
i know it won't really do any good to try to reason with him, it will just feel good to "nail it.".
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pirata
Start off on a common ground. Agree that the Apostles supports congregational discipline, but that meaning can be easily misunderstood. Then consider the scriptures:
1 Corinthians 5:11-13 “Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.”
Am I a "so-called brother"? No This scripture warns against hypocrites who claim to be a brother, but then do things contrary to their claim. I no longer claim to be "a brother" (in the narrow definition that a brother is a JW), so this scripture no longer applies and I should be treated as all other worldy people.
Titus 9, 10: As for a man that promotes a sect, reject him after a first and a second admonition; knowing that such a man has been turned out of the way and is sinning.”
Am I promoting a sect? Let's see the WT definition of sect in August 2010 Awake! pg. 6 "A sect is a dissenting group with a religious community or one that breaks away to form a new religion." I am not promoting any new religion that is an offshoot of JWs, nor am I a dissenting group within JWs. I am no longer a JW and I am now a worldly person.
1 John 2: 18 Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as YOU have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But [they went out] that it might be shown up that not all are of our sort. 20 And YOU have an anointing from the holy one; all of YOU have knowledge. 21 I write YOU, not because YOU do not know the truth, but because YOU know it, and because no lie originates with the truth.
Am I the antichrist? (If no, then just stop there. If they say yes, then continue: Who is the antichrist? According to the 2001 August 8 Awake, the antichrists are all governments, false religions, and members of these. Scripturally, the antichrist is one who "Denies the father and the son" (1 John 2:22). Why is this scripture only applied to those who leave the WT and not all those identified by the WTS as the antichrist? A convenient double standard. (Note that most WT publications usually only quote vs 19,20, leaving out the vital detail that the scripture is referring to the antichrist)).
What did Jesus have to say about the matter?
(Matthew 18:15-17) 15 “Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. 17 If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.
(Mark 2:15-17) 15 Later he happened to be reclining at the table in his house, and many tax collectors and sinners were reclining with Jesus and his disciples, for there were many of them and they began following him. 16 But the scribes of the Pharisees, when they saw he was eating with the sinners and tax collectors, began saying to his disciples: “Does he eat with the tax collectors and sinners?” 17 Upon hearing this Jesus said to them: “Those who are strong do not need a physician, but those who are ill do. I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners.”
Jesus said to treat an unrepentant one as a man of the nations (wordly person) and as a tax collector (sinner). How did Jesus view tax collectors? Notice Jesus reply to the Pharisees who accused him of eating with the tax collectors. Jesus was reaching out to help them, he was not shunning them. (The JW response is that when Jesus said to treat people as tax collectors, he was referring to the fact that the Jews did not have close contact with gentile tax collectors. The rebuttal is that Jesus set the example for how we should act, which is much more important).
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Can you "fornicate" with your marriage mate? I've heard the WTBTS says that you can. Is this true?
by ultrabimbo inis it true that the current thinking of jehovah's witnesses is that you can "fornicate" with your marriage mate if you engage in sexual activity that is not approved by the writing department at bethel?
what are some examples?.
ultrabimbo.
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pirata
I understand (but cannot find it in writing and may be wrong) that phone sex is classed as fornication/adultery. If that is so what is the difference with someone who indulges in pornography? Is this a scriptural or WT sanctioned ground for divorce allowing remarriage?
There was a discussion of this during the COs visit with the Elders and MSs. From what I remember, porn that involve another person(phone sex, video sex chat, etc), would be considered gross loose conduct and be a disfellowshipping offense. Porn that involves viewing something posted is not considered a disfellowshipping offense. I believe either of those are considered fornication or adultery, which requires physical contact, ocrrect me if I'm wrong.
What if the man (or woman) has relations with their lawfully wedded other but fantasises that it is actually somebody else. Why is that not fornication?
WT considers fantasies dangerous because it can lead to action (fornication). But only the action itself is considered adultery.
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Can you "fornicate" with your marriage mate? I've heard the WTBTS says that you can. Is this true?
by ultrabimbo inis it true that the current thinking of jehovah's witnesses is that you can "fornicate" with your marriage mate if you engage in sexual activity that is not approved by the writing department at bethel?
what are some examples?.
ultrabimbo.
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pirata
Sorry about the previous messed up post. I still haven't got a hang of how to properly format things here.
Here's the summary again:
Pre-ray Franz Article: Marriage mates could fornicate, it was suggested that this included oral sex. Ray Franz's later article later made it clear that some Elders were using earlier statements in the WT to disfellowship those who practiced oral sex.
Ray Franz Article: Marriage mates cannot fornicate (since fornication is only outside of marriage). Conscience matter. If Elders were aware of this their conscience may move them to withold priviliges
Post Ray Franz Article: Same as Ray's, except disfellowshipping allowed when for openly practicing and advocating oral or anal sex.
All articles consider it lewd or unnatural.