Bohm, thank you for your posts, I just want to let you know that I am not ignoring you, and I apologize for the delay, I got involved in a debate on another thread that has kept me busy. I will be back to post here soon.
UnDisfellowshipped
JoinedPosts by UnDisfellowshipped
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151
God, Morals, and Atheists
by UnDisfellowshipped inmy version of the "moral argument for god": .
(i have derived the following arguments after studying c.s.
lewis', norman geisler's, and victor reppert's arguments, and i want to give credit where credit is due).
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BANE is an Apostate
by UnDisfellowshipped inbane is an apostate!
(all of the things that i am posting below are things that bane has stated on other threads on this website).
bane said:.
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UnDisfellowshipped
Yeah, I notice that Bane has stayed away from this thread. lol
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1914 Doctrine is FALSE -- Questions for JW's
by UnDisfellowshipped inis there any jehovah's witness who can answer these questions about 1914?.
can you demonstrate, using the holy scriptures, that the messianic kingdom was established in 1914, that jesus got the full legal right to become king that year, and that jesus returned invisibly in 1914, and that the "last days" began that year?.
1:) no encyclopedia, no history book, and no archaeology book that i have ever seen have ever said that nebuchadnezzar destroyed jerusalem and the temple in the year 607 bce.
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UnDisfellowshipped
The only thing Bane knows how to do is use the logical fallacy of name-calling ("ad hominem" personal attacks) and to condemn all of us to Gehenna, while ignoring all of the evidence that is presented, and he posts the occasional Scripture which has nothing to do with what he is claiming, and then he declares that Jehovah has helped him once again to "Out-Scripturize" all of his opposers.
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457
TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else
by UnDisfellowshipped intrinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.
and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.
* the son was praying to the father.
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UnDisfellowshipped
TD,
Great suggestion!
Defining words and terms and phrases is something everyone should do at the beginning of a debate/discussion.
I will do so here:
The following list gives the definition of words, terms, and phrases that I will use in this debate:
* "Godship": "Divine Nature" [from the "Insight" Book and Liddell & Scott]; "the state of being God" [Thayer], the Essence or Being of God.
* "Deity": Same as "Godship."
* "Divinity": Same as "Godship."
* "Godhead": Same as "Godship."
* "Trinity": Three Distinct Eternal All-Powerful Persons who share the same Divine Nature.
* "Triune": Three-in-Unity.
* "The Logos": The Spirit Person who existed with God in the beginning, through whom all things were made. Translated as "The Word" in most Bibles.
* "Only-Begotten": "The Greek word mo·no·ge·nes´ is defined by lexicographers as “single of its kind, only,” or “the only member of a kin or kind.” (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, 1889, p. 417; Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, Oxford, 1968, p. 1144)" (That was a quote from the "Insight" Book, Volume 2, Page 556)
* "Firstborn": The one who holds the highest rank, the preeminence, the first place, the "most high" position. (See Psalm 89:27)
* "God" with a Capital "G": The One True God by Nature, the Supreme Being, the Creator, the Almighty.
* "god" with a lower-case "g": Anyone or thing that is called a god by people, or that is worshiped, or a representative of the True God who does not have the Divine Nature.
* "Angel" with a Capital "A": "The Angel of the Lord," The Special Divine Angel that has God's Name within Him, who is also Jehovah.
* "angel" with a lower-case "a": Any one of the millions of created spirit persons who serve God and do not have the Divine Nature.
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457
TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else
by UnDisfellowshipped intrinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.
and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.
* the son was praying to the father.
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UnDisfellowshipped
djeggnog said:
"I'm not going to quibble, but no, Paul is not explaining anything about God's nature at Romans 1:20. He is making the point that God's qualities, His "eternal power and Godship" being among them, are perceived by the things made."
My Reply:
Do you know what the word "Godship" means? Do you know what the Greek word means? How do you define the word "Godship"?
I will let the "Insight" Book explain for us what this word means:
"Insight" Book, Volume 1, Page 639 (Under the heading "Divine"):
At Romans 1:20 the apostle refers to the undeniable visible evidence of God’s “invisible qualities,” particularly his “eternal power and Godship [Thei·o´tes].” ... according to Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, the Greek word thei·o´tes means “divine nature, divinity.” (P. 788) So there is a basis for rendering thei·o´tes as referring to the quality of being a god, not the person of God, and this is supported by the context. The apostle is discussing things that are discernible in the physical creation. For example, while the creation does not reveal the name of God, it does give evidence of his “eternal power”--needed to create and sustain the universe. The physical creation also displays his “Godship,” the fact that the Creator truly is God and is worthy of our worship.
So then, "Godship" means "Divine Nature," "The quality of being a god," "the fact that the Creator truly is God and is worthy of our worship."
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TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else
by UnDisfellowshipped intrinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.
and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.
* the son was praying to the father.
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UnDisfellowshipped
Great post Peacedog! And great reasoning and use of logic and exegesis! (Something which is rare to find)
One thing that I would add to bolster your argument even more: The context of Isaiah 44.
At the beginning of Isaiah 44, Jehovah says "I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God. And who is there like me?... Does there exist a God besides me? No... I have recognized none."
Then Jehovah goes on to say, at Isaiah 44:24, "I, Jehovah, ... am stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, laying out the earth. WHO WAS WITH ME?"
So, Jehovah is specifically saying those words to prove that there were NO OTHER GODS together with Him helping Him to create heaven and earth.
Compare Deuteronomy 32:39 ("There are NO GODS TOGETHER WITH ME")
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1914 Doctrine is FALSE -- Questions for JW's
by UnDisfellowshipped inis there any jehovah's witness who can answer these questions about 1914?.
can you demonstrate, using the holy scriptures, that the messianic kingdom was established in 1914, that jesus got the full legal right to become king that year, and that jesus returned invisibly in 1914, and that the "last days" began that year?.
1:) no encyclopedia, no history book, and no archaeology book that i have ever seen have ever said that nebuchadnezzar destroyed jerusalem and the temple in the year 607 bce.
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UnDisfellowshipped
Bane said:
"Un, Perhaps Jehovah is stopping you from posting crap"
Wow, I am so happy to hear that Bane agrees with me that the Watchtower Article I was trying to post was "crap."
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TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else
by UnDisfellowshipped intrinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.
and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.
* the son was praying to the father.
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UnDisfellowshipped
Since I have already shown from the New World Translation that (1) There is only One True God by Nature, (2) there are no other gods that exist, and (3) there is no other god together with the One True God, now we will examine what the Christian-Greek Scriptures have to say about Jesus.
John opens his Gospel with this declaration: "In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This one was in [the] beginning with God." (John 1:1-2)
Then he continues writing about this "Word" who became the Man, Jesus Christ:
"No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him." (John 1:18)
Toward the end of John's Gospel, he writes about the Apostle Thomas' declaration of faith in the Resurrected Jesus:
"Next he said to Thomas: “Put your finger here, and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop being unbelieving but become believing.” In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him: “Because you have seen me have you believed? Happy are those who do not see and yet believe.” " (John 20:27-29)
So, we can clearly see that the Christian-Greek Scriptures teach that Jesus Christ is "a god," "the only-begotten god," and "My God" [of Thomas at least]. In addition, Isaiah 9:6 teaches that Jesus is "The Mighty God."
What are we to make of this?
How does this possibly harmonize with the First Point that we established above?
I will continue this discussion tomorrow after work. Now I am off to bed.
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457
TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else
by UnDisfellowshipped intrinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.
and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.
* the son was praying to the father.
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UnDisfellowshipped
Debate with djeggnog: Point Number [2]: *
There are Three Distinct Persons who share equally the Nature of God. * (
PART ONE: The Second Person of the Trinity, The Son)
Djeggnog, I hope we are already in agreement about Point Number [1] above (and the 7 sub-points I listed).
And, I also assume we are already in agreement that the Person called "The Father" in the Christian-Greek Scriptures is truly God by Nature.
So, now I am moving on to the Second Person, known as "the Son," "the Word," "Jesus," and many other names and titles.
(All Scriptures are from the New World Translation Reference Bible, 1984 edition)
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457
TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else
by UnDisfellowshipped intrinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.
and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.
* the son was praying to the father.
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UnDisfellowshipped
Debate with djeggnog: Point Number [1]: * There is only One True God by Nature *
(All Scriptures are from the New World Translation, 1984 edition, with References, Footnotes)
I hope we both agree that the Hebrew Scriptures teach that there is only One True God, and His Name is Jehovah. I think we have common ground there.
Here are the Hebrew Scriptures which show that there is only One True God and His Name is Jehovah (or YHWH):
Isaiah 45:5:I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. With the exception of me there is no God.
Deuteronomy 32:39:See now that I--I am he And there are no gods together with me.
1 Kings 8:60:to the end that all the peoples of the earth may know that Jehovah is the [true] God. There is no other.
Isaiah 44:6-8:“This is what Jehovah has said, ... ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God. And who is there like me? ... And you are my witnesses. Does there exist a God besides me? No, there is no Rock. I have recognized none.’”
Isaiah 43:10-11:“You are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, "... Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. I--I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”
Deuteronomy 4:35, 39:You--you have been shown, so as to know that Jehovah is the [true] God; there is no other besides him. ... And you well know today, and you must call back to your heart that Jehovah is the [true] God in the heavens above and on the earth beneath. There is no other.
Isaiah 45:21-23:... Is it not I, Jehovah, besides whom there is no other God; a righteous God and a Savior, there being none excepting me? “Turn to me and be saved, all you [at the] ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no one else. By my own self I have sworn--out of my own mouth in righteousness the word has gone forth, so that it will not return--that to me every knee will bend down, every tongue will swear,
Isaiah 46:9:Remember ... that I am the Divine One and there is no other God, nor anyone like me;
Joel 2:27:And you people will have to know ... that I am Jehovah your God and there is no other.
1 Chronicles 17:20:O Jehovah, there is none like you, and there is no God except you in connection with all that we have heard with our ears.
Deuteronomy 6:4:“Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.
Now, djeggnog, are we in agreement so far? Do you agree that the Hebrew Scriptures teach that there is only One True God, and His Name is Jehovah?
Okay, now onto the Christian-Greek Scriptures:
James 2:19:You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. ...
As you can see from that verse in the Book of James, the Christian-Greek Scriptures teach the same thing as the Hebrew Scriptures, namely that there is only One True God.
But, what does "Only True God" or "One True God" mean exactly? Look at the following two verses, which help to explain the meaning:
Galatians 4:8:Nevertheless, when you did not know God, then it was that you slaved for those who by nature are not gods.
Romans 1:20:For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable;
Romans 1:25: even those who exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the One who created, who is blessed forever. Amen.
The Apostle Paul is explaining that there is only One God who has the true Godship [Nature of God], and this is the Creator (Jehovah). He also explains that all other gods are NOT gods by nature. And we should NEVER venerate or render sacred service to any creature, but only to the Creator.
Djeggnog, are we on the same page so far? Do you agree or disagree with any of the things I have said?
And, how serious of an offense against God was it if an Israelite started following or preaching a different god other than Jehovah? Deuteronomy explains:
Deuteronomy 13:1-5: “In case a prophet or a dreamer of a dream arises in your midst and does give you a sign or a portent, and the sign or the portent does come true of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us walk after other gods, whom you have not known, and let us serve them,’ you must not listen to the words of that prophet or to the dreamer of that dream, because Jehovah YOUR God is testing you to know whether you are loving Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul. After Jehovah your God you should walk, and him you should fear, and his commandments you should keep, and to his voice you should listen, and him you should serve, and to him you should cling. And that prophet or that dreamer of the dream should be put to death, because he has spoken of revolt against Jehovah your God, who has brought you out of the land of Egypt and has redeemed you from the house of slaves, to turn you from the way in which Jehovah your God has commanded you to walk; and you must clear out what is evil from your midst.
So, as we can clearly see, this was a very important and serious thing to the Israelite Nation and also to the early followers of Jesus Christ. Anyone who was preaching any different god other than Jehovah in the Nation of Israel was to be put to death immediately.
Things we have established so far from the New World Translation:
1:) There is only One True God. (1 Kings 8:60)
2:) No other gods exist. (Isaiah 45:5)
3:) The One True God's Name is Jehovah. (Isaiah 43:10-11)
4:) There is only One God who is God by Nature and has the True Godship [Divinity, Divine Nature]. (Romans 1:20, Galatians 4:8)
5:) Christians should never venerate or render sacred service to any creature, but only to the Creator. (Romans 1:25)
6:) There is no other god together with the One True God. (Deuteronomy 32:39)
7:) Anyone who preached any different god besides the One True God was to be put to death. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5)
Djeggnog, do you agree with these 7 points that we just established from the New World Translation?