God, Morals, and Atheists

by UnDisfellowshipped 151 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    My Version of the "Moral Argument for God":

    (I have derived the following arguments after studying C.S. Lewis', Norman Geisler's, and Victor Reppert's arguments, and I want to give credit where credit is due)

    First of all, if Materialism/Naturalism is true (where only the physical Universe exists with no Personal Being that created it), and everything is the result of time, mindless physical laws, and blind chance, then there is no objective good and evil. There is no objective right and wrong. There are only subjective opinions and feelings of individuals. Each person has their own views on what is right and what is wrong, and what is good and what is evil. And, on what basis could an Atheist claim that someone else was wrong in their moral views?

    But, when Atheists/Materialists/Naturalists make the claim that the existence of evil proves there is no God, are they not claiming to know that there is objective evil (or imperfection) in this world? And how can they know what is evil (or imperfect), unless there is an ultimate objective good (or perfection) that they are measuring things against? And how can there possibly be an ultimate objective Moral Law to measure against, unless there is an Ultimate Law-Giver?

    What basis does an Atheist have for claiming that anything is "good" or "evil"?

    When Atheists use the "Argument from Evil", what do they actually mean by "evil"?

    If Atheists do not believe that there is any ultimate objective good or evil, then any "evil" that the Atheist speaks of must simply be his or her own personal subjective opinion or feeling.

    If Naturalism/Materialism is true, then that means there is no objective basis for saying that slavery, genocide, rape, murder, child molestation, or the Watchtower Society, is wrong or evil.

    Why shouldn't people go out and do anything they want to do, if Naturalism is true? Why shouldn't the strong and powerful abuse the weak and the poor? Survival of the fittest, after all, right?

    How can you argue that God is acting "unjustly" for allowing "evil," unless you know what is ultimately just, and what is ultimately evil? And how can you possibly know what is ultimately just or unjust if Naturalism is true?

    Was the Nazi Holocaust just a matter of opinion? What would be the reaction of 90% of the people in the world if someone said "The Holocaust was a good thing! Those people deserved it!" ?

    Your reactions tell you much more about the existence of an objective moral law than do your actions.

    For example, people may do all kinds of evil to other people, but how do they react when someone does something unfair to them, or takes away some of their rights? Why do all people react as though they are being treated "UNFAIRLY" if there is no such thing as an objective justice or fairness?

    If you were to compare the behavior of Mother Teresa to Adolf Hitler (or, for a modern example, Barack Obama to Osama bin Laden), you would be appealing to an absolute unchanging standard of right and wrong behavior beyond both of them. Otherwise, if Naturalism is true, there is no difference between them. They simply had different beliefs and ideas. Hitler was not evil and Mother Teresa was not good.

    The minute that you claim that one set of morals (the US Constitution, for example) is better than another set of morals (the Nazis' worldview, for example), you are, in fact, measuring both sets of morals by some kind of standard, saying that one of them conforms more closely to the standard than the other one does. But, this "Standard" must be something separate from the two sets of morals that you are comparing.

    If there is no objective Moral Law, then there is no moral difference between Mother Teresa and Hitler. Also, to claim that "genocide is wrong," "rape is wrong," "women should have the right to an abortion," or "racism is immoral," or "gays should not be persecuted," would have absolutely no real meaning. They would just be the opinions of certain individuals, and why should anyone ELSE be obligated to follow YOUR personal, subjective feelings and opinions?

    If Naturalism is true, no one would have any moral obligation to follow anyone else's morals, they could choose to follow their own morals, or to follow no morals at all. The whole world could be filled with people like Hitler and the Joker (Heath Ledger version), and no one would have any objective basis to say that these people are wrong.

    Several times in the past, I have also seen Atheists say "If there is a Good God, He should put an end to evil right now. Why doesn't He put an end to evil? God would be unjust to allow all of this evil." But then, they turn around and accuse God of being "unjust" or "barbaric" because He DID put an end to evil people in the Old Testament!

    So which is it? Is God unjust because He DOESN'T put an end to evil people, or because He DOES put an end to evil people? And what objective basis do you have for claiming that the God of the Old Testament is "unjust" or "unfair"?

    Also, if you really think about it, are you so sure that you want God to put an end to all evil people right now? What if He started with you? The Bible says each and every one of us are sinners in His eyes. There is no difference. All have sinned and fall short of God's glorious standard.

    The Bible says that the reason why there is evil is this:

    1:) God created angels and humans with free will, so that they could freely choose to either love Him and obey Him, or rebel against Him and face the consequences.

    2:) An angel and two humans rebelled against God, and God punished them and cursed the earth (along with all of creation), and all humans are sinful because they inherited a sinful nature from the first two human sinners.

    3:) Natural disasters, sicknesses, and the deaths of animals are the results of the curse God put on all creation, in addition to the evils that are caused by other humans (and the fallen angel).

    4:) And one day, Jesus will return and put an end to all evil, including suffering and death.

    As Victor Reppert said:

    "Objects in a naturalistic world are not supposed to have moral properties. That is ruled out by any reasonable definition of naturalism. Particle arrangements are just not going to get you there."

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    'And, on what basis could an Atheist claim that someone else was wrong in their moral views?'

    If it causes suffering.

    'And how can they know what is evil (or imperfect), unless there is an ultimate objective good (or perfection) that they are measuring things against?'

    I think that they don't do that, ie, the don't bother w the idea od perfection.

    'And how can there possibly be an ultimate objective Moral Law to measure against, unless there is an Ultimate Law-Giver?'

    It's based on what causes suffering. Anyways, moral law, ie the bible is just a book written by men, not god. Why bother w the captals?

    'What basis does an Atheist have for claiming that anything is "good" or "evil"?

    When Atheists use the "Argument from Evil", what do they actually mean by "evil"?'

    Again, i think that they don't use the term evil. It's a strawman that YOU created.

    '. If Naturalism/Materialism is true, then that means there is no objective basis for saying that slavery, genocide, rape, murder, child molestation, or the Watchtower Society, is wrong or evil.'

    Because of the suffering it causes.

    'Why shouldn't people go out and do anything they want to do, if Naturalism is true? Why shouldn't the strong and powerful abuse the weak and the poor?'

    Because tey generally have empathy. They generally don't want to cause suffering, anymore than do theists.

    'Survival of the fittest, after all, right?'

    Refering to evolution. You fail to take note of the balance between competition and cooperation that is noted in nature and is part of evolutionary theory. The best balance between competiton and cooperation survives the best. Secondly, you misconstrue or misunderstand evolutionasry theory; it;s merely conclusions based on observations. It doesn't dictate morality, or a dropping of it. The imposition of standards and punishments is the property of bible followers.

    'How can you argue that God is acting "unjustly" for allowing "evil," unless you know what is ultimately just, and what is ultimately evil? And how can you possibly know what is ultimately just or unjust if Naturalism is true?'

    Umm, suffering?

    Hitler and osama were both theists. What was their god thinking???

    Enough, for now.

    S

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    Hitler and osama were both theists.

    Hitler was a public theist. His words in private were very different.

    Incidentally, I have not read your entire post (I just scanned it), undisfellowshipped, but it reminds me of this famous quote from the great Spanish existentialist philosopher, Miguel de Unamuno in his great work, The Tragic Sense of Life:

    We have remarked before that the parasites which live in the intestines of higher animals, feeding upon the nutritive juices which these animals supply, do not need either to see or hear, and therefore for them the visible and audible world does not exist. And if they possessed a certain degree of consciousness and took account of the fact that the animal at whose expense they live believed in a world of sight and hearing, they would perhaps deem such belief to be due merely to the extravagance of its imagination. And similarly there are social parasites, as Mr. A.J. Balfour admirably observes,[10] who, receiving from the society in which they live the motives of their moral conduct, deny that belief in God and the other life is a necessary foundation for good conduct and for a tolerable life, society having prepared for them the spiritual nutriment by which they live. An isolated individual can endure life and live it well and even heroically without in any sort believing either in the immortality of the soul or in God, but he lives the life of a spiritual parasite. What we call the sense of honour is, even in non-Christians, a Christian product. And I will say further, that if there exists in a man faith in God joined to a life of purity and moral elevation, it is not so much the believing in God that makes him good, as the being good, thanks to God, that makes him believe in Him. Goodness is the best source of spiritual clear-sightedness.

    and again

    Parasites which live in the intestines of other animals upon the nutritive juices which they find ready prepared for them by these animals, as they do not need either to see or hear, do in fact neither see nor hear; they simply adhere, a kind of receptive bag, to the being upon whom they live. For these parasites the visible and audible world does not exist. It is enough for them that the animals, in whose intestines they live, see and hear.

    They live in the bowels, feed upon the sustenance, but do not see the light. They use the strength of the host organism as a weapon to use against it.

    BTS

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Satanus,

    Thank you for your reply!

    But, what objective basis do you have for claiming that suffering is wrong or immoral or bad?

    Isn't it just your own subjective opinion (or the subjective opinions of others) that suffering is wrong? Why should anyone else accept your own subjective opinion about suffering?

    It's not a "strawman I created". If you read several Atheist books, they will use the "Argument from EVIL" against God. I have seen Atheists on this very website claim that the fact that there is "evil" in the world is a reason why there cannot be a just God.

    When I asked why anyone should be moral, and not go out and do whatever they wanted to do, you said:

    "Because they generally have empathy. They generally don't want to cause suffering, anymore than do theists."

    But why does anyone have "empathy" at all? Why should we care? And if Naturalism is true, then it would just be your own subjective opinion (or the subjective opinions of others) that they should show empathy.

    What basis would anyone have to follow your subjective opinion that they should show empathy? What objective basis would you have to say that those people who DON'T show empathy to others are wrong or immoral?

  • sinis
    sinis

    Nothing is immoral or bad - those words are ILLUSIONS. These are illusions used so that people can come together, by giving up true "freedom", and live in a semi-cohesive environment. Otherwise society as we know it today could not exist, and though we have individuals who are "evil" or "bad", and are looked down upon, these individuals have merely taken back what freedoms they intially relinquished for individual survival. The debates between good and bad are meaningless. They both survive on the same plain as they are mere interpretations of different peoples coming to grips with the illusion of society and what was required of them to give up (or take back), to keep this illusion going.

    Both Atheists and Theists project these "qualities" into what they believe and those around them to differentiate themselves and to identify themselves with like minded individuals. The idea of "good" and "bad" is more complex than your original posts alluded to... morals exists for one function only - to insure that CIVILIZATION and the society with which humans have built, including trade, services, and work, flow more freely, without holy hell and choas breaking loose...

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Sinis,

    I want to thank you for illustrating very clearly for all of us where Naturalism/Materialism actually takes us all if you follow it to its logical conclusion.

    Thanks!

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Subjective, of course. Then, laws are based on the common consensus. It always starts out objective. Why have views of what is right and wrong changed within the bible? Objective or subjective?

    I suspect that the atheists on this site use the term 'evil' for the benefit of those w whom they are arguing, not because of their own unbelief.

    Empathy is possibly a result of evolution. For instamce, it has been observed in action in monkeys by scientists. Why would they have it? Do they believe in the bible god?

    S

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    There are no true atheists. Everyone has a god that they serve.

    BTS

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    BTS

    Hitler wanted the ot detached and deleted from the bible. However, he had no probleem w the nt.

    S

  • sinis
    sinis

    No, its because the monkey realizes that what goes around comes around (we don't give animals enough credit - yes they do think) and by possibly showing empathy they are doing two things, perpetuating their kind, and two, insuring that if they themselves fall prey they will have empathy poured upon them. Its about group and individual survival. At least that is my opinion...

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