ISP

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  1

  Jesus-Mystical or Historical?

  by ISP in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  check out the online debate on...... > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jesusmysteries.

  regards.

  isp

  1. 
• 

  ISP

  Check out the online debate on.....

  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JesusMysteries

  Regards

  ISP
• 
  29

  June1,2001WT QFR Confess to Elders?

  by ISP in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  (entire article).

  questions from readers.

  in view of jehovahs willingness to forgive sins by the merit of the ransom sacrifice, why is it necessary for christians to confess to the older men in the congregation?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  ISP

  (Entire article)

  Questions From Readers
  In view of Jehovah’s willingness to forgive sins by the merit of the ransom sacrifice, why is it necessary for Christians to confess to the older men in the congregation?

  As can be seen in the case of David and Bath-sheba, Jehovah forgave David’s sin, grave though it was, because of David’s genuine repentance. When the prophet Nathan approached him, David openly confessed: “I have sinned against Jehovah.”—2 Samuel 12:13.
  However, Jehovah not only accepts a sinner’s sincere confession and extends forgiveness but he also makes loving provisions to help the erring one progress to spiritual recovery. In David’s case, the help came through the prophet Nathan. Today, in the Christian congregation, there are spiritually mature older men, or elders. The disciple James explains: “Is there anyone [spiritually] sick among you? Let him call the older men of the congregation to him, and let them pray over him, greasing him with oil in the name of Jehovah. And the prayer of faith will make the indisposed one well, and Jehovah will raise him up. Also, if he has committed sins, it will be forgiven him.”—James 5:14, 15.
  Skillful elders can do much to ease the pain of heart that is felt by the remorseful sinner. They strive to imitate Jehovah in their
  dealings with him. They never want to be harsh, even though strong discipline maybe warranted. Rather, they compassionately consider the immediate needs of the individual. Patiently they strive to readjust erring one’s thinking by using God’s Word. (Galatians 6:1) Even if a person does not voluntarily confess his sin, he may still be moved repentance when approached by the elders, as David was when approached by Nathan. The support thus rendered by the elders helps the one to avoid the danger of repeating the sin and the serious consequences of becoming a hardened practicer of sin.—Hebrews 10:26-31.
  It is certainly not easy to confess to others deeds that one feels ashamed of and to seek forgiveness. It takes inner strength. Reflect for a moment, though, on the alternative. One man who failed to reveal his serious sin to the elders in the congregation said: “l felt a pain in my heart that would not go away. I increased my efforts in the preaching work, but the sickening feeling remained.” He felt that confession to God in prayer was enough, but clearly it was not, for he experienced feelings similar to King David’s. (Psalm 51:8, 11) How much better to accept the loving assistance that Jehovah provides through the elders!
  THE WATCHTOWER • JUNE 1, 2001 31

  .....end of article
  The bible does mention confessing sins but in the context of confessing directly without the elder ‘filter’.
  *** Rbi8 1 John 1:9 - 2:2 ***
  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous so as to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we make the statement: “We have not sinned,” we are making him a liar, and his word is not in us.
  2 My little children, I am writing YOU these things that YOU may not commit a sin. And yet, if anyone does commit a sin, we have a helper with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one. 2 And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s.

  Why go beyond that? Especially since the account of David and Nathan was pre-Christ. You really doubt that many elders will consider anyone that did not confess voluntarily as ‘repentant’ although how many judicial committees would have considered David repentant?

  ISP
• 
  18

  In what order were the NT books written?

  by GinnyTosken in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  "jude," she [sue bridehead] said brightly, when he had finished and come back to her; "will you let me make you a new new testament, like the one i made for myself at christminster?".

  how was that made?".

  "i altered my old one by cutting up all the epistles and gospels into separate brochures, and rearranging them in chronological order as written, beginning the book with thessalonians, following on with the epistles, and putting the gospels much further on.

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  2. 
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  ISP

  Letters of Paul c50
  Marks Gospel 70-110
  Matt and Luke 90-135
  John c120
  Acts 150-177
  Letters of the Apostles 177-220

  ISP
• 
  2

  QFR Confess to Elders?WT June 1,2001

  by ISP in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  article in full..................... questions from readers.

  in view of jehovahs willingness to forgive sins by the merit of the ransom sacrifice, why is it necessary for christians to confess to the older men in the congregation?.

  as can be seen in the case of david and bath-sheba, jehovah forgave davids sin, grave though it was, because of davids genuine repentance.

  1. 
  2. 
• 

  ISP

  Article in full....................

  Questions From Readers
  In view of Jehovah’s willingness to forgive sins by the merit of the ransom sacrifice, why is it necessary for Christians to confess to the older men in the congregation?

  As can be seen in the case of David and Bath-sheba, Jehovah forgave David’s sin, grave though it was, because of David’s genuine repentance. When the prophet Nathan approached him, David openly confessed: “I have sinned against Jehovah.”—2 Samuel 12:13.
  However, Jehovah not only accepts a sinner’s sincere confession and extends forgiveness but he also makes loving provisions to help the erring one progress to spiritual recovery. In David’s case, the help came through the prophet Nathan. Today, in the Christian congregation, there are spiritually mature older men, or elders. The disciple James explains: “Is there anyone [spiritually] sick among you? Let him call the older men of the congregation to him, and let them pray over him, greasing him with oil in the name of Jehovah. And the prayer of faith will make the indisposed one well, and Jehovah will raise him up. Also, if he has committed sins, it will be forgiven him.”—James 5:14, 15.
  Skillful elders can do much to ease the pain of heart that is felt by the remorseful sinner. They strive to imitate Jehovah in their

  dealings with him. They never want to be harsh, even though strong discipline maybe warranted. Rather, they compassionately consider the immediate needs of the individual. Patiently they strive to readjust erring one’s thinking by using God’s Word. (Galatians 6:1) Even if a person does not voluntarily confess his sin, he may still be moved repentance when approached by the elders, as David was when approached by Nathan. The support thus rendered by the elders helps the one to avoid the danger of repeating the sin and the serious consequences of becoming a hardened practicer of sin.—Hebrews 10:26-31.
  It is certainly not easy to confess to others deeds that one feels ashamed of and to seek forgiveness. It takes inner strength. Reflect for a moment, though, on the alternative. One man who failed to reveal his serious sin to the elders in the congregation said: “l felt a pain in my heart that would not go away. I increased my efforts in the preaching work, but the sickening feeling remained.” He felt that confession to God in prayer was enough, but clearly it was not, for he experienced feelings similar to King David’s. (Psalm 51:8, 11) How much better to accept the loving assistance that Jehovah provides through the elders!
  THE WATCHTOWER • JUNE 1, 2001 31
  end of article.................

  The bible does mention confessing sins but in the context of confessing directly without the elder ‘filter’ and of course those so doing are grateful to Jesus/God and not the elders!
  *** Rbi8 1 John 1:9 - 2:2 ***
  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous so as to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we make the statement: “We have not sinned,” we are making him a liar, and his word is not in us.
  2 My little children, I am writing YOU these things that YOU may not commit a sin. And yet, if anyone does commit a sin, we have a helper with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one. 2 And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s.

  Why go beyond that? Especially since the account of David and Nathan was pre-Christ and you really doubt that many elders will consider anyone that did not confess voluntarily as ‘repentant’.Although how many judicial committees would have considered David repentant?

  ISP
• 
  2

  June 1,2001 WT Who Has Gods Backing?

  by ISP in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  june15 wt contains some very helpful assistance in identifying those having gods backing.

  having read the article......i am no wiser!

  well....no surprises there i guess!

  1. 
  2. 
• 

  ISP

  June15 WT contains some very helpful assistance in identifying those having Gods backing. Having read the article……I am no wiser! Well….no surprises there I guess! I've scanned in the following section. Feel free to answer up and make public declaration of your faith brothers!

  Identifying Marks of Those Having God's Backing
  7 They base their teachings on the Bible. Jesus said: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me. If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or I speak of my own originality." And also: "He that is from God listens to the sayings of God." (John 7:16, 17; 8:47) Logically, to enjoy God's backing, one must teach only what God reveals in his Word and reject teachings based on human wisdom or tradition.-Isaiah 29: 13; Matthew 15:3-9; Colossians 2:8.
  Can't be the WTS. I guess they did finally reject the 'human wisdom' of 1925, Beth-Sarim, 1975, Generation, etc. but what else next? They are so fond of their 'human wisdom and traditions'.

  8 They use and publicize God's name, Jehovah. Isaiah foretold: "In that day you will certainly say: 'Give thanks to Jehovah, you people! Call upon his name. Make known among the peoples his dealings. Make men-lion that his name is put on high. Make melody to Jehovah, for he has done surpassingly. This is made known in all the earth."' (Isaiah 12:4, 5) Jesus taught his followers to pray:
  "Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified." (Matthew 6:9) Therefore, whetherJew or non-Jew, Christians were to serve as "a people for [God's] name." (Acts 15:14) God is obviously pleased to back those who are proud to be "a people for his name.~~
  This is wishful thinking. Because they claim the name as God's they assume God backs them without any objective evidence that God actually does so. Mere use of the name could never be enough and certainly there is no evidence that the WTS are blessed by God in anything they do.

  9 They reflect God's joyful personality. As author of "good news," Jehovah is "the happy God." (1 Timothy 1:11) So how could his worshipers be unhappy or persistently pessimistic? Despite world distress and personal problems, true Christians maintain a joyful spirit because they regularly feast on rich spiritual food. Isaiah contrasts them with those practicing false religion: "This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: 'Look! My own servants will eat, but you yourselves will go hungry. Look! My own servants will drink, but you yourselves will go thirsty. Look! My own servants will rejoice, but you yourselves will suffer shame. Look! My own servants will cry out joyfully because of the good condition of the heart, but you will make outcries because of the pain of heart and you will howl because of sheer breakdown of spirit.'"-Isaiah 65:13,14.
  Funny how I know so many JW's who are depressed, stressed and are under medication including elders. I also know 2 that tragically took their own lives. Those who 'cry out joyfully' are those who are left, in my observation!.

  10 They base their conduct and their decisions on Bible principles. "Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding," the writer of Proverbs advises us, "in all your ways take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths straight." (Proverbs 3:5, 6) God backs those who look to him for direction rather than to the contradictory theories of humans who ignore godly wisdom. To the extent that a person is willing to pattern his life after God's Word, he will avoid having to learn by trial and error.-Psalm 119:33; 1 Corinthians 1:19-21.
  Another correct type statement-but one that the WTS could not honestly claim-and doesn't here!. The WTS have learnt 'by trial and error' but they say it is the light that gets brighter!

  11 They are organized in the manner of the first-century Christian congregation. Jesus set out the principle: "Do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers. Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. Neither be called 'leaders,' for your Leader is one, the Christ. But the greatest one among you must be your minister." (Matthew 23:8-11) A congregation of brothers precludes having a proud clergy class that honors itself with high-sounding titles and elevates itself above a laity. (Job 32:21, 22) Those shepherding the flock of God are told to do so "not under compulsion, but willingly; neither for love of dishonest gain, but eagerly; neither as lording it over those who are God's inheritance, but becoming examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:2, 3) Genuine Christian shepherds refrain from trying to make themselves masters over the faith of others. As fellow workers in God's service, they simply strive to set a fine example.-2 Corinthians 1:24.
  More garbage! The WTS has a host of 'high-sounding titles'i.e. circuit overseer, district overseer, etc that rank with the clergy's bishops etc. How helpful the elders are! 'They simply strive to set a fine example'……like they did with Ray Franz and local/recent example of Simon! Yeah right!

  12 They are submissive to human governments and yet remain neutraL He who fails to be "in subjection to the superior authorities" cannot expect to have God's backing. Why? Because "the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God." (Romans 13:1, 2) However, Jesus recognized the possibility of a conflict of interests when he said: "Pay back Caesar's things to Caesar, but God's things to God." (Mark 12:17) Those desiring to have God's backing must "keep on.. . seeking first the kingdom [of God] and his righteousness," while at the same time obeying the laws of the land that are compatible with their higher responsibilities to God. (Matthew 6:33; Acts 5:29) Jesus stressed neutrality when he said of his disciples: "They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world." He later added: "My kingdom is no part of this world."-John 17:16; 18:36.
  Can't be the WTS who didn't quite pay taxes to the French! Not quite like Jesus *** Rbi8 Matthew 17:24-27***24 After they arrived in Ca·per'na·um the men collecting the two drachmas [tax] approached Peter and said: "Does YOUR teacher not pay the two drachmas [tax]?" 25 He said: "Yes." However, when he entered the house Jesus got ahead of him by saying: "What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth receive duties or head tax? From their sons or from the strangers?" 26 When he said: "From the strangers," Jesus said to him: "Really, then, the sons are tax-free. 27 But that we do not cause them to stumble, you go to the sea, cast a fishhook, and take the first fish coming up and, when you open its mouth, you will find a stater coin. Take that and give it to them for me and you."

  There again the fish stocks in the North Atlantic are depleted enough!
  The donation arrangement was a handy way of avoiding tax by getting the publishers to give 'donations' for the literature and also ask the public for a contribution also!

  13 They are impartial in working ~what is good toward alL" (Galatians 6:10) Christian love knows no partiality; accepting all people regardless of their skin color, economic or educational status, nationality, or language. The working of what is good toward all and especially toward those related to them in the faith helps to identify those having God's backing. Jesus said: "By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves."-John 13:35; Acts 10:34, 35.
  They have no humanitarian programs. They rely on a number of kind ones in the hall to show charity to others without ever put their hand in their corporate pocket.

  14 They are willing to suffer persecution for doing God's will. Jesus forewarned his followers: "If they have persecuted me, they will persecute you also; if they have observed my word, they will observe yours also." (John 15:20; Matthew 5:11, 12; 2 Timothy 3:12) Those having God's backing have always been unpopular, as was Noah, who condemned the world through his faith. (Hebrews 11:7) Today, those desiring God's backing dare not water down God's word or compromise godly principles so as to avoid persecution. As long as they faithfully serve God, they know that people will be "puzzled and go on speaking abusively" of them.-1 Peter 2:12; 3:16; 4:4.
  Excuse me weren't some 'godly principles' watered down in Mexico and Bulgaria so as to avoid persecution? People are generally 'puzzled' and go on 'speaking abusively' of them because of the utter crap they come out with, more than anything else!

  ISP
• 
  12

  June 1,2001 WT Who Has Gods Backing?

  by ISP in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  june15 wt contains some very helpful assistance in identifying those having gods backing.

  having read the article......i am no wiser!

  well....no surprises there i guess!

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  ISP

  June15 WT contains some very helpful assistance in identifying those having Gods backing. Having read the article……I am no wiser! Well….no surprises there I guess! Feel free to answer up and make public declaration of your faith brothers! The section is scanned in for your additional enjoyment........it would be a shame to edit any out. I added some comments in bold at the end of each paragraph to help the study along. They are by no means meant to cover all points and you are free to bring out your own. I hope you can make this encouraging to all especially lurkers or those coming to our discussion for the first time by your joyful participation.

  Identifying Marks of Those Having God's Backing
  7 They base their teachings on the Bible. Jesus said: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me. If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or I speak of my own originality." And also: "He that is from God listens to the sayings of God." (John 7:16, 17; 8:47) Logically, to enjoy God's backing, one must teach only what God reveals in his Word and reject teachings based on human wisdom or tradition.-Isaiah 29: 13; Matthew 15:3-9; Colossians 2:8.
  Can't be the WTS. I guess they did finally reject the 'human wisdom' of 1925, Beth-Sarim, 1975, Generation, etc. but what else next? They are so fond of their 'human wisdom and traditions'.

  8 They use and publicize God's name, Jehovah. Isaiah foretold: "In that day you will certainly say: 'Give thanks to Jehovah, you people! Call upon his name. Make known among the peoples his dealings. Make men-lion that his name is put on high. Make melody to Jehovah, for he has done surpassingly. This is made known in all the earth."' (Isaiah 12:4, 5) Jesus taught his followers to pray:
  "Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified." (Matthew 6:9) Therefore, whetherJew or non-Jew, Christians were to serve as "a people for [God's] name." (Acts 15:14) God is obviously pleased to back those who are proud to be "a people for his name.~~
  This is wishful thinking. Because they claim the name as God's they assume God backs them without any objective evidence that God actually does so. Mere use of the name could never be enough and certainly there is no evidence that the WTS are blessed by God in anything they do.

  9 They reflect God's joyful personality. As author of "good news," Jehovah is "the happy God." (1 Timothy 1:11) So how could his worshipers be unhappy or persistently pessimistic? Despite world distress and personal problems, true Christians maintain a joyful spirit because they regularly feast on rich spiritual food. Isaiah contrasts them with those practicing false religion: "This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: 'Look! My own servants will eat, but you yourselves will go hungry. Look! My own servants will drink, but you yourselves will go thirsty. Look! My own servants will rejoice, but you yourselves will suffer shame. Look! My own servants will cry out joyfully because of the good condition of the heart, but you will make outcries because of the pain of heart and you will howl because of sheer breakdown of spirit.'"-Isaiah 65:13,14.
  Funny how I know so many JW's who are depressed, stressed and are under medication including elders. I also know 2 that tragically took their own lives. Those who 'cry out joyfully' are those who are left, in my observation!.

  10 They base their conduct and their decisions on Bible principles. "Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding," the writer of Proverbs advises us, "in all your ways take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths straight." (Proverbs 3:5, 6) God backs those who look to him for direction rather than to the contradictory theories of humans who ignore godly wisdom. To the extent that a person is willing to pattern his life after God's Word, he will avoid having to learn by trial and error.-Psalm 119:33; 1 Corinthians 1:19-21.
  Another correct type statement-but one that the WTS could not honestly claim-and doesn't here!. The WTS have learnt 'by trial and error' but they say it is the light that gets brighter!

  11 They are organized in the manner of the first-century Christian congregation. Jesus set out the principle: "Do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers. Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. Neither be called 'leaders,' for your Leader is one, the Christ. But the greatest one among you must be your minister." (Matthew 23:8-11) A congregation of brothers precludes having a proud clergy class that honors itself with high-sounding titles and elevates itself above a laity. (Job 32:21, 22) Those shepherding the flock of God are told to do so "not under compulsion, but willingly; neither for love of dishonest gain, but eagerly; neither as lording it over those who are God's inheritance, but becoming examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:2, 3) Genuine Christian shepherds refrain from trying to make themselves masters over the faith of others. As fellow workers in God's service, they simply strive to set a fine example.-2 Corinthians 1:24.
  More garbage! The WTS has a host of 'high-sounding titles'i.e. circuit overseer, district overseer, etc that rank with the clergy's bishops etc. How helpful the elders are! 'They simply strive to set a fine example'……like they did with Ray Franz and local/recent example of Simon! Yeah right!

  12 They are submissive to human governments and yet remain neutraL He who fails to be "in subjection to the superior authorities" cannot expect to have God's backing. Why? Because "the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God." (Romans 13:1, 2) However, Jesus recognized the possibility of a conflict of interests when he said: "Pay back Caesar's things to Caesar, but God's things to God." (Mark 12:17) Those desiring to have God's backing must "keep on.. . seeking first the kingdom [of God] and his righteousness," while at the same time obeying the laws of the land that are compatible with their higher responsibilities to God. (Matthew 6:33; Acts 5:29) Jesus stressed neutrality when he said of his disciples: "They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world." He later added: "My kingdom is no part of this world."-John 17:16; 18:36.
  Can't be the WTS who didn't quite pay taxes to the French! Not quite like Jesus *** Rbi8 Matthew 17:24-27***24 After they arrived in Ca·per'na·um the men collecting the two drachmas [tax] approached Peter and said: "Does YOUR teacher not pay the two drachmas [tax]?" 25 He said: "Yes." However, when he entered the house Jesus got ahead of him by saying: "What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth receive duties or head tax? From their sons or from the strangers?" 26 When he said: "From the strangers," Jesus said to him: "Really, then, the sons are tax-free. 27 But that we do not cause them to stumble, you go to the sea, cast a fishhook, and take the first fish coming up and, when you open its mouth, you will find a stater coin. Take that and give it to them for me and you."

  There again the fish stocks in the North Atlantic are depleted enough!
  The donation arrangement was a handy way of avoiding tax by getting the publishers to give 'donations' for the literature and also ask the public for a contribution also!

  13 They are impartial in working ~what is good toward alL" (Galatians 6:10) Christian love knows no partiality; accepting all people regardless of their skin color, economic or educational status, nationality, or language. The working of what is good toward all and especially toward those related to them in the faith helps to identify those having God's backing. Jesus said: "By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves."-John 13:35; Acts 10:34, 35.
  They have no humanitarian programs. They rely on a number of kind ones in the hall to show charity to others without ever put their hand in their corporate pocket.

  14 They are willing to suffer persecution for doing God's will. Jesus forewarned his followers: "If they have persecuted me, they will persecute you also; if they have observed my word, they will observe yours also." (John 15:20; Matthew 5:11, 12; 2 Timothy 3:12) Those having God's backing have always been unpopular, as was Noah, who condemned the world through his faith. (Hebrews 11:7) Today, those desiring God's backing dare not water down God's word or compromise godly principles so as to avoid persecution. As long as they faithfully serve God, they know that people will be "puzzled and go on speaking abusively" of them.-1 Peter 2:12; 3:16; 4:4.
  Excuse me weren't some 'godly principles' watered down in Mexico and Bulgaria so as to avoid persecution? People are generally 'puzzled' and go on 'speaking abusively' of them because of the utter crap they come out with, more than anything else!

  ISP
• 
  40

  Have I changed?

  by mommy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  as most of you know i am new to the world of the internet.

  therefore i am new to the discussion board forum.

  when i first entered simon's place, i did not fear to speak my mind.

  1. 
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  3. 
• 

  ISP

  Hi Mommy,
  I've always found you a very fair-minded and warm character. I've not known you to cause offense.

  I hope you stick around as you are an asset to the board. Hope ya get things sorted out.

  ISP
• 
  35

  Is it Gospel?

  by ISP in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the may 15 2000 watchtower page 4 indicated that scholars at the jesus seminar had concluded that 82% of all the words attributed to jesus in the gospels were not authentic but 'derived from later tradition'.. it is difficult to say for yourself but i do find it remarkable that pauls letters do not contain any references to jesus' life, history or more importantly his teachings.

  the sermon the mount, lords prayer or the golden rule etc.

  do not get a mention in his words to fledgling congregations.

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  2. 
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  ISP

  Hi Dark Clouds,

  Pauls letters were wrote before 70 CE and are basically genuine. The 'pastorals' are however considered to be forgeries. So you cannot reject what he says in favour of something else so easily.

  The gospels were evidently created to put validity to a mythical character. It seems no one at the time excepted they were true. In fact the supposed features compared with paganism.

  Centuries before Christianity Pagans also worshipped a Son of God. This person was also born of a virgin on the 25th of December before 3 shepherds,turned water into wine,died and ressurected at easter and offered his body and blood as a Holy Communion.

  There is no historical evidence of Jesus and what if these Pagan myths had been reworked as the gospel accounts?

  ISP
• 
  35

  Is it Gospel?

  by ISP in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the may 15 2000 watchtower page 4 indicated that scholars at the jesus seminar had concluded that 82% of all the words attributed to jesus in the gospels were not authentic but 'derived from later tradition'.. it is difficult to say for yourself but i do find it remarkable that pauls letters do not contain any references to jesus' life, history or more importantly his teachings.

  the sermon the mount, lords prayer or the golden rule etc.

  do not get a mention in his words to fledgling congregations.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  ISP

  G'day Oz!

  I would expect anyone becoming a Christian would dwell on what Jesus said.......wouldn't you? The accounts making up the 'gospels' were supposedly recorded and circulated verbally{long before they went into print) and would have to be the focus of discussion and contemplation amongst new converts and the congregations as oppose to what the teachings of others were. That would be a reasonable expectation. But evidence of that is absent.

  So far as Paul is concerned I would expect him to learn as much as possible about the Christ having been an opposer. This would involve meeting those still alive who had first hand knowledge of him and his sayings. I expect someone like Paul would have meditated on these and used them in his letters to others. He refers to 'Christ' in his letters but not to an historical person who lived only a few years earlier.

  What would you say to someone who told you of a messiah that had died for you?! When you enquired about personal details of that one - there were none. How believable would that all be? Well that was one of the problems…….hence the gospels.

  ISP
• 
  35

  Is it Gospel?

  by ISP in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the may 15 2000 watchtower page 4 indicated that scholars at the jesus seminar had concluded that 82% of all the words attributed to jesus in the gospels were not authentic but 'derived from later tradition'.. it is difficult to say for yourself but i do find it remarkable that pauls letters do not contain any references to jesus' life, history or more importantly his teachings.

  the sermon the mount, lords prayer or the golden rule etc.

  do not get a mention in his words to fledgling congregations.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  ISP

  There are probably hundreds of Christian gospels but these are regarded as mythologies...........but the four we have are not myths like the others but truth!

  But scholars today regard very little of the gospels we have as authentic........82% derived from the prevailing traditions. I find it remarkable that so powerful teaching was virtually ignored by the 1st Century leaders. Why? Because there was nothing to speak to of. i.e it was only later that sayings/teachings were attributed to him.

  The book of Acts is another book that creates more questions than it answers.

  ISP