Kalos-- already addressed the prime mover argument
Posts by bohm
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80God is not an element both in religious fanaticism and atheism alike
by exWTslave inin my intimate conversations with many of my atheists friends i have found that their real problem is the human rights abuse of the religious fanaticssomething which god hates (not the lack of proof for gods existence) (means when the religions went to one extreme, their opponents go to another extremethus god is not at all an element in religious fanaticism and atheism alike) atheists shun, belittle or resist proofs for the existence of god, because they fear it will only further strengthen the religion from which the fanaticism arisethus object of atheists attack is fanaticism (not god) .
hence what atheists do is really a service to the humanity (while fanaticism is a crime against humanity).
hence when the atheists ask for proof for the existence of god, one need not take it seriously.
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443
Zone Visit: An Announcement That Will "Test Your Faith"
by breakfast of champions inthis is the scuttlebutt in one of the "bethel congregations" by us.. no details as to exactly what this "faith-testing" announcement might be.. anyone else hear any of this pre-zone visit hype?.
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bohm
cofty: “If we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond what we declared to you as good news let him be accursed.” (Gal.1:8)
Of course ! All things progress, the angel didn't have the newest light that poor sod ;-).
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443
Zone Visit: An Announcement That Will "Test Your Faith"
by breakfast of champions inthis is the scuttlebutt in one of the "bethel congregations" by us.. no details as to exactly what this "faith-testing" announcement might be.. anyone else hear any of this pre-zone visit hype?.
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bohm
Gustv: Actually, for the number of existing JWs, the number of abuse cases is really minuscule. In our four generation JWship, I have never dealt with a case of pedophilia in any of the many Spanish congs I have served.
Four generations would be about, say, 300 years? lol.
I am impressed by your record, however the elders serving in the Conti would have said roughly the same up untill the lawsuit, you know, no pedophelia, just the random loose allegation that does not stand up to the biblical standard of two witnesses.
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102
It is official they're selling off Kingdom Halls in Britain
by raymond frantz ini posted here a week ago some disturbing news for congregations being consolidated in britain.
my goodness that was nothing !
a letter was read today from bethel addressed to all congregations in britain that can only be described as the biggest news for years.the main points:.
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bohm
RF:
7) give people the impression the religion is expanding (there is a need for new halls & existing halls are overcrowded)
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80
God is not an element both in religious fanaticism and atheism alike
by exWTslave inin my intimate conversations with many of my atheists friends i have found that their real problem is the human rights abuse of the religious fanaticssomething which god hates (not the lack of proof for gods existence) (means when the religions went to one extreme, their opponents go to another extremethus god is not at all an element in religious fanaticism and atheism alike) atheists shun, belittle or resist proofs for the existence of god, because they fear it will only further strengthen the religion from which the fanaticism arisethus object of atheists attack is fanaticism (not god) .
hence what atheists do is really a service to the humanity (while fanaticism is a crime against humanity).
hence when the atheists ask for proof for the existence of god, one need not take it seriously.
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bohm
Kalos: Look, lets just assume all atheists just want to be atheists. We can still discuss what evidence there is for Gods existence. I have only read the first article you cited and this seems to be the most concrete single point:
As this article from Scientific American magazine points out, “It has been estimated that a supercomputer applying plausible rules for protein folding would need 10 to the 127th power years to find the final folded form for even a very short sequence consisting of just 100 amino acids.” And protein folding is only the first step in creating life from lifeless chemicals. Further, random processes would need a heck of a lot longer to fold proteins than would a supercomputer programmed to do so. But, the problem is, the universe is only about 15 billion years old.
Notice what the quotes says: It is computationally demanding to MODEL the folding of proteins. This has absolutely nothing to do with evolution since in nature proteins just fold themselves (or not) depending on the laws of nature. What the author of the article properly want to say is random chance generating a protein that can fold is very implausible, but this is not at all what the quote is related to.
A nearly perfect analogy would be to say wood cannot burn, because modelling how wood burns at the atomic level is computationally hard. The argument is really no better than that.
If I am irrational or not does not change the fact the author seems to lack basic reading comprehension skills.
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51
Science is right in its details, but wrong in its direction
by exWTslave inscience observes, studies and analyses the basic nature of all the components constituting the part of any experiment, follows the principle of cause and effect, and come out with equipments that would contribute to our comfort and save us lots of time and energyall of which are ultimately aimed at making life on this earth happier, longer and healthier, thus making this world a better place to live.. yet man day-by-day becomes more and more unhappy and discontented, and world is becoming bitter and bitter!
it means: though science is right in its details, it has gone wrong in its direction.
it failed to rightly judge and assess the true nature of its prime object (man) for whom it works.
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bohm
Kalos: But you realise Edger Hoover was not a scientist? Please read his biography, at that time he was spying on nearly everyone of notority. You wrote specifically that: " Scientific community works almost like JWs, " I had in mind the plight of Albert Einstein.
Edger hoover was not by any stretch of the imagination part of the scientific community. If you meant to say Einstein was treated poorly (as were so many others) by Hoover and FBI I do not disagree at all.
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80
God is not an element both in religious fanaticism and atheism alike
by exWTslave inin my intimate conversations with many of my atheists friends i have found that their real problem is the human rights abuse of the religious fanaticssomething which god hates (not the lack of proof for gods existence) (means when the religions went to one extreme, their opponents go to another extremethus god is not at all an element in religious fanaticism and atheism alike) atheists shun, belittle or resist proofs for the existence of god, because they fear it will only further strengthen the religion from which the fanaticism arisethus object of atheists attack is fanaticism (not god) .
hence what atheists do is really a service to the humanity (while fanaticism is a crime against humanity).
hence when the atheists ask for proof for the existence of god, one need not take it seriously.
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bohm
exwtslave: Similarly, everything we see is matter, yet matter itself and the way it acts are proofs for the existence of God. Because universe is composed of matter, and, as a system, is sustained by motion. Motion is not a property of matter, and without this motion, all systems such as the solar system …. could not exist.
Okay I think I can agree so far as motion is not a property of matter. However you need to consider what motion is. One way to put this is to say motion is the way two objects change their relationship over time, for instance to say a ball move towards the ground is to say their relationship in space is changing at some rate, the rate being determined by laws of physics. Can we agree so far?
THE NATURAL STATE OF MATTER IS A STATE OF REST. Motion, or change of place, is the effect of an external cause acting upon matter.
this is where the problems begin. Your conception of motion is in essense pre-newtonian. At that time it was thought the natural state of matter was indeed rest and everything would eventually come to rest. Come the advant of newtons laws it was apparent the natural state of matter is to *not change direction or speed* if not acted upon by external forces. In this more modern view the natural state of motion is whatever state it was in previously and whatever forces is acting upon it.
Everything which has hitherto been discovered relates only to the laws by which motion acts, AND NOT TO THE CAUSE OF MOTION.
...another way to put this is to say all we know about motion up to this point is that it is simply determined by laws, i.e. there is no need for an external cause.
Were motion a property of matter, that undiscovered and undiscoverable thing called perpetual motion would establish itself?
but we agreed motion was not a property of matter.
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51
Science is right in its details, but wrong in its direction
by exWTslave inscience observes, studies and analyses the basic nature of all the components constituting the part of any experiment, follows the principle of cause and effect, and come out with equipments that would contribute to our comfort and save us lots of time and energyall of which are ultimately aimed at making life on this earth happier, longer and healthier, thus making this world a better place to live.. yet man day-by-day becomes more and more unhappy and discontented, and world is becoming bitter and bitter!
it means: though science is right in its details, it has gone wrong in its direction.
it failed to rightly judge and assess the true nature of its prime object (man) for whom it works.
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bohm
Kalos:
When I said " Scientific community works almost like JWs, " I had in mind the plight of Albert Einstein. When he left the convention, and started talking like a messiah, he was treated like an apostate (as JWs treat apostates), and it's history Cofty too must be familiar.
What is the evidence of this? Consider special relativity, it was proposed in 1905 (in a time where scientific communication was much slower today). Nearly the entire scientific establishment within about 5 years. This is pretty remarkable considering how little experimental evidence there was in it's support and legitimate critisism could be possible on that ground.
Are you talking about general relativity or something else?
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102
It is official they're selling off Kingdom Halls in Britain
by raymond frantz ini posted here a week ago some disturbing news for congregations being consolidated in britain.
my goodness that was nothing !
a letter was read today from bethel addressed to all congregations in britain that can only be described as the biggest news for years.the main points:.
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bohm
Splash:
Yes, the BOE 2014 March 29th specifically said: "The need for Kingdom Halls and Assembly Halls is greater than ever before. At this time, over 13,000 Kingdom Hall projects and 35 Assembly Hall projects are needed worldwide. Much of this need is in parts of the world where the cost of property and building materials is high."
This is the beauty of this move. Selling property serves three goals:
(i) most obviously, they get access to liquid assets, but I think this is the least important bit
More importantly it serves the main goal: create a shortage of kingdom halls. The benefits are twofold:
(ii) it create an obvious sense the WT is expanding: The number of kingdom halls are too few, too crowded and many halls must be build to serve a growing need (see the letter).
(iii) secondly, to build new ones there is an obvious need for money. Everyone can understand this need and see imediate benefits (ones own kingdom hall near the home) and thus the WT can push for donations.
There is NO reason to think this means the WT is financially pressed. This is the obvious strategy to follow if you are in a situation of little or zero growth.
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102
It is official they're selling off Kingdom Halls in Britain
by raymond frantz ini posted here a week ago some disturbing news for congregations being consolidated in britain.
my goodness that was nothing !
a letter was read today from bethel addressed to all congregations in britain that can only be described as the biggest news for years.the main points:.
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bohm
...and in a few years: jehovah has blessed his organization with growth such that most kingdom halls are now overcrowded. Please donate what you can such that we can buy more land for jehovah