trebor

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Posts by trebor

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  8

  Atheism: Evidence (Part I)

  by leavingwt in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  from youtube user evid3nc3.

  (the full playlist of this video series is here: why i am no longer a christian.).

  i lay the philosophical groundwork for my epistemological position of evidentialist foundationalism by contrasting it with the first principles journey of the rationalist descartes.. .

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  trebor

  Fantastic! Thank you for sharing that video, leavingwt.
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  18

  Which type of "Apostate" is worse? An Atheist/Agnostic or one who joins a New Organized Religion?

  by QuestioningEverything in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  sorry, i posted this in another section.

  meant to put it here.. just wondering which kind is worse to active jw's?

  my aunt used to be a jw but now she is a mormon.

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  trebor

  In my short time on the planet, I've come to realize that SOME people NEED to be told what to do. They cannot thrive unless they operate with CERTAINTY.

  I prefer to embrace the unknown. I will die, not knowing the answers to countless questions that many consider to be of utmost importance.
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  25

  Perhaps some helpful advice. My rant on the JW mindset.

  by garyneal in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  pride and prejudice abound in the watchtower religion.. i go to the assemblies and it becomes very clear that the speakers are so proud of the fact that their religion is the one true religion and that they are so much better than the other churches out there.

  the amount of pride i heard coming from the platform is astounding.

  astounding still is the fact that they cannot see it themselves and at one point in time, i could not see it either.

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  trebor

  But bashing my character when I made a sincere effort to find the so called one true religion for myself is just a tactic to deflect the conversation from considering the facts to simply considering the source. MIND OFF!!!

  As one of the latest Watchtowers stated, you are just "mentally diseased", if you no longer follow the Society and its teachings. The ad hominem attacks, as long as it is one-sided and done by the Watchtower Society, are perfectly fine. Reverse it, and you're persecuting them unjustly.
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  12

  What Is A Cult? Recognizing And Avoiding Unhealthy Groups

  by 3Mozzies in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  jayanti tamm author, 'cartwheels in a sari: a memoir of growing up cult'.

  what is a cult?

  recognizing and avoiding unhealthy groups.

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  trebor

  I have to agree, once on the outside it seems so blatantly obvious...But I guess that's part of the smoke and mirrors while a member. Cults work. And believing and thinking you're not in one and it is "the truth" is proof positive of the effectiveness.
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  30

  Why This Atheist Respects the Jehovah's Witnesses-And why other Atheists should too!

  by RaustBD in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i'm an atheist, and i'd like to take some time to talk about why i hold a great deal of respect for the jehovah's witnesses, and some words of encouragement that may put an end to the ridicule and disrespect you seem to get from, well, all sorts of people.. .

  i never gave this kind of criticism a second thought: i knew nothing about you, and i figured you were just another fringe group of christianity.

  i now feel terrible about this, and i wish to apologize for my (admittedly never spoken) disrespect.

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  trebor

  Because the Witnesses are the only branch of Christianity that has the courage to denounce what I feel is the single most evil idea ever contrived by anyone: The Hell of Eternal Fire And Brimstone.

  That is incorrect. Christadelphians do not believe in hell. In fact, many of Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs are similar to those of Christadelphians as well as House of Yahweh.

  Jehovah's Witnesses are deep into Restorationism like Adventists and Latter Day Saints (Mormons).

  Jehovah's Witnesses are also into Millenarianism. Just like the following groups:

  -Aum Supreme Truth
  -Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University
  -Branch Davidians
  -Dulcinianism
  -Heaven's Gate
  -Hinduism
  -Hojjatieh
  -Joachimites
  -Judaism
  -Plymouth Brethren
  -Rastafari Movement
  -Shakers
  -Taiping Rebellion
  -The Living Church of God
  -The Lord's Resistance Army
  -Yellow Turbans

  They're an offshoot group movement that originated in the United States and grew in the early and mid 19th century.

  While it is true there are groups involved in Millenarianism since centuries ago, dozens of books promoting Millenarianism were published in the first three decades of the 19th century, and many new Millenarian societies were formed since then. Jehovah's Witnesses were another one of a long list. They just had some better financing and leadership than most to start them off.
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  25

  Do Children Who Get Baptized Have Any Legal Leeway To Leave The Religion When They Are Older Without Shunning?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  after reading the threads on watchtower encouraging 10 year olds to take the baptismal plunge, i wonder if they have an actual legal right to terminate their agreements without any penalty enforced by the organization.. i think those of us who were "too young" to enter into any contract could be absolved of any agreements, even religious vows, because we were still obviously too young to understand all the "fine print" before signing.. what do you think??

  ?.

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  trebor

  The shunning is alledgedly originating from individual JW's and not from marching orders.

  And that is the Borg's "out" on most of their most heinous rules. "We don't control our members. They choose their associates themselves. They choose for themselves to let their kids die rather than get a blood transfusion. They chose to forego an education and planning for retirement themselves. We don't control our members."

  I don't know about that. This seems pretty directive to me:

  Our Kingdom Ministry, August 2002, Page 4, paragraph 12:"Benefits of Being Loyal to Jehovah: Cooperating with the Scriptural arrangement to disfellowship and shun unrepentant wrongdoers is beneficial."
  
  
  Also, their relatively new publication "Keep Yourself In God's Love" states that strict avoidance [of disfellowshipped and disassociated persons] is really necessary, in the appendix under the subject of how to treat a disfellowshipped person.
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  19

  I have to tell you

  by mouthy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  there are some wonderful folks reading this site.. so many wonderful jws( doubters ...but reading).

  also there are folks on here who know it is a cult... one of them just called me...( wont say who ,as is fading).. but encouraged me so very much,thank you thank you thankyou.

  i always go back to my post & i seem .

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  trebor

  Agreed...I don't post too often, but read much...Mouthy, you are very much appreciated and needed.

  Thank you for being a part of the site and for sharing your thoughts.
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  382

  The Gentile Times Reconsidered

  by Spade in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  disproving the date 1914 as a significant year in bible prophecy is of great importance to some (e.g.

  carl o. jonsson).

  along with the meticulous details of bible and secular chronology, broadening one's horizons when assessing exactly what this date represents when compared against the 6000 years of human history likewise has merit.

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  trebor

  Using the Bible along with the Watchtower Society’s own publications proves their teachings to be incorrect.

  When Jerusalem fell is documented in the Bible at 2 Kings 25:8-9:

  "And in the fifth month on the seventh [day] of the month, that is to say, the nineteenth year of King Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, Nebuzaradan the chief of the bodyguard, the servant of the king of Babylon, came to Jerusalem. And he proceeded to burn the house of Jehovah and the king's house and all the houses of Jerusalem; and the house of every great man he burned with fire."

  The nineteenth year of King Nebuchadnezzar rule is when Jerusalem fell.

  What year is the nineteenth year of King Nebuchadnezzar?

  This can be deduced with the aid of referencing two of the Watchtower Society’s publications. The first publication is Insight on the Scriptures. On page 457 in Volume 2 under ‘Nabonidus’ it states the following:

  "Last supreme monarch of the Babylonian Empire; father of Belshazzar. On the basis of cuneiform texts he is believed to have ruled some 17 years (556-539 B.C.E.). He was given to literature, art, and religion."

  The second reference, the Watchtower Society's publication Babylon the Great Has Fallen - God's Kingdom Rules on page 184 it states:

  "After reigning but two years King Evil-Merodach was murdered by his brother-in-law Neriglissar. According to the inscriptions that have been found, this usurper of the throne spent most of his time in building operations and reigned four years. When he died, his son Labashi-Marduk, though not yet of age, succeeded him. He was a vicious boy, and within nine months he had his throat cut by an assassin. Nabonidus, who had served as Governor of Babylon and who had been Nebuchadnezzar's favorite son-in-law, now took the throne and had a fairly glorious reign till Babylon fell in 539 B.C."

  Take into consideration along with the above information that both Historical data and the Watchtower Society agree that Nebuchadnezzar ruled for a period of 43 years...

  Insight on the Scriptures, page 480 in Volume 2 under ‘Nebuchadnezzar’:

  "Nebuchadnezzar ruled as king for 43 years"

  Now let’s gather the above information...

  539 B.C. = Year Babylon Fell

  Prior to the fall of Babylon, the history of its rulership is as follows:

  17 years = Rulership of Nabonidus

  1 year (9 months) = Rulership of Labashi-Marduk

  4 years = Rulership of Neriglissar

  2 years = Rulership of Evil-Merodach

  43 years = Rulership of Nebuchadnezzar

  Doing the math with the above facts:

  539 + 17 + 1 +4 + 2 + 43 = 606

  NOTE: We add here because we are tracing back the years of rulership. During B.C. years to go back in history you add years, to go forward in history you subtract years.

  Therefore, 606 B.C. would be the year Nebuchadnezzar starts to rule.

  Going back to our scripture in 2 Kings 25: 8, 9, it was during Nebuchadnezzar’s 19th year that Jerusalem fell.

  Doing that math:

  606 - 19 = 587

  NOTE: We subtract here because time is progressing during Nebuchadnezzar’s reign. The years decrease not increase, as we are calculating B.C. years and not A.D. years.

  From the above, 587 B.C. would be the year Jerusalem fell.

  It’s plain to see that simply by using two of the Watchtower Society’s own publications along with two verses from the Bible, one can prove the teaching of Jerusalem fallen on 607 B.C. which Jehovah’s Witnesses are taught to be accurate by the Watchtower Society is a lie. It is a teaching to support their doctrine and interpretation of scripture.
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  6

  Iran woman with stoning sentence shown on state TV

  by possible-san in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  iran woman with stoning sentence shown on state tv (associated press).

  http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101115/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_stoning.

  is this an occurrence in the 21st century?

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  trebor

  The Watchtower Society would like to do the same to people:

  The Watchtower, November 15, 1952, page 703, Questions from Readers:
  
  "In the case of where a father or mother or son or daughter is disfellowshipped [disassociated], how should such person be treated by members of the family in their family relationship?
  
  We are not living today among theocratic nations where such members of our fleshly family relationship could be exterminated for apostasy from God and his theocratic organization, as was possible and was ordered in the nation of Israel in the wilderness of Sinai and in the land of Palestine. . . Being limited by the laws of the worldly nation in which we live and also by the laws of God through Jesus Christ, we can take action against apostates only to a certain extent, that is, consistent with both sets of laws. The law of the land and God’s law through Christ forbid us to kill apostates, even though they be members of our own flesh-and-blood family relationship. However, God’s law requires us to recognize their being disfellowshipped from his congregation."

  Over the years, the organization had enough sense not to outrightly make such statements as the above, but the attitude and feeling is the same and is always performed on an emotional and mental level to ex-members.

  The Watchtower, July 15, 1961, page 420:
  
  "Jesus encouraged his followers to love their enemies, but God's Word also says to "hate what is bad." When a person persists in a way of badness after knowing what is right, when the bad becomes so ingrained that it is an inseparable part of his make-up, then in order to hate what is bad a Christian must hate the person with whom the badness is inseparably linked."
  
  The Watchtower Society's message is clear. Despite Jesus' teaching to love your enemy, the principle to hate what is bad must be followed to a superlative degree. It is not just to hate what a person has done, but to hate the person.

  Our Kingdom Ministry, August 2002, Page 4, paragraph 12:"Benefits of Being Loyal to Jehovah: Cooperating with the Scriptural arrangement to disfellowship and shun unrepentant wrongdoers is beneficial."
  
  
  Keep Yourselves In God's Love (2008), Appendix, How To Treat A Disfellowshipped Person:
  
  "Is strict avoidance really necessary?

  "Yes"

  "Loyal Christian family members do not look for excuses to have dealings with a disfellowshipped relative not living at home"

  "Bible principles on this subject apply equally to those who disassociate themselves from the congregation."
  
  
  No need for physically stoning by the Watchtower Society, they give ex-members another type of stoning. Cult anyone?
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  15

  If You KNEW ALL That Was Expected Of You Would You Have Joined The JWs?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  since i was in the born in the religion category, i was pretty much indoctrinated from babyhood.

  but i wonder if there was a written contract available, how many would so "freely" join?

  any opinions?.

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  trebor

  I echo sentiments similar to Scully's. Living up to expectation I did, and was a ministreal servant working towards being an elder, making meetings, out in field service and giving regular parts on the meetings. It was learning of the lies, deceits, bogus teachings and flip-flops in teaching that left me no option but to disassociate myself. Blaming women of fornications, not worhty of a resurrection if raped and not screaming, the flip-flop on organ transplants being cannibalistic, in addition to all the other flip-flops: Resurrection of the men of Sodom, Superior Authorities, "This Generation", made it obvious the organization is not what the leaders claimed.

  Add on their mixed/different origins explanation of a faithful and discreet slave 'class', their 'friend of the court' stance with Swaggart, The UN NPO affiliation, the disingenuous translation of the New World Translation, among so-much more which at best and very generously seen as no different than any other organization, fairly seen as a high level control group, and deep down a cult or at the very least a high-level control organization which employs cult-like tactics.

  Knowing all or even some of the above, I would never had been baptized and would have no longer attended meetings or preach their 'message' much, much sooner.

  -trebor