Of course atheists can't be ethical or moral - not left to their own devices at least. After all, they don't have a several thousand year old collection of scriptures to tell them how to act and treat others. Luckily, they can become slightly ethical by living among Christians, so that their unflinching morals and ethics can rub off on them. I mean - if you could just kill everyone around you constantly, and steal everything you saw with no God punishing you for it - wouldn't you do it? Of course you would! I would! I'd kill 'em all! Roast 'em and eat 'em. That's what you'd do if you didn't have Scripture. Poor atheists.
Awakened07
JoinedPosts by Awakened07
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Can Atheists be ethical?
by nvrgnbk ini had to share this gem.how many fallacies do you find in it?.
can atheists be ethical?the answer to this question is a definite "yes.
" atheists are people who, whether they like it or not, have the law of god written on their hearts (rom.
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Were YOU Raised In "The Truth" or Did You Convert???
by minimus ini was raised a witness.
(so i have some excuse).
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Awakened07
Raised. But it turned out I was not of the Truth, and so God kicked me out. Well - not totally yet, but he's planning to.
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A Jesus Fish-Bone: The Life and Experiences of JCanon
by GetBusyLiving ini just thought i would start a thread wherein we could get some background info on jcanon without any of the end times predictions.
just want to get a feel for who this person is, what type of environment helped mold his world view, and what his likes and dislikes are.
whatever your opinion of him you have to admit that he's a character.
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Awakened07
He's as good a Messiah as any.
I used to think he was just cluttering up the forum with nonsense topics, but now I see that I can use him as an example of how people can arrive at pretty much any conclusion using the Bible as source. No offense meant.
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Jehovah's Witnesses Who "Get" It
by minimus ini think there are many that understand that alot of things are bullsh*t. i think they know that the "truth" is not everything it's cracked up to be.
they recognize that many directions should simply be ignored.
just don't talk about it.
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Awakened07
funkyderek - how dare you steal my thoughts and post them in fewer words before I managed to post them!
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Jehovah's Witnesses Who "Get" It
by minimus ini think there are many that understand that alot of things are bullsh*t. i think they know that the "truth" is not everything it's cracked up to be.
they recognize that many directions should simply be ignored.
just don't talk about it.
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Awakened07
he chuckled and said yeah, but nothing anyone can say will convince me of the trinity Who said anything about the trinity???? Why does that always come up???
I've heard this a lot too. I think it's because most (all?) other Christian denominations are trinitarian (well - if not, this goes to show how indoctrinated I became while active...), and so JWs can't see how they could leave and join any other Christian church. Leaving and becoming an atheist or join some other religion was not an option after all the bashing the WTS had done about those.
Personally, I fit the opening post's description pretty well. Thinking back, there was always something I thought couldn't be right, but to sum up the things that made me stay in line, I think it would be these points:
The name Jehovah. I thought this was God's name and that I had good evidence of this in the literature, and I thought JWs were the only ones who uses it. Prophecies. I believed they wouldn't lie to me(!), and thought we had good evidence from the literature that the prophecies had come true. Both those which 'came true' during biblical times, but I also felt that the end time prophecies very coming true before my eyes. Trinity (as mentioned). I couldn't believe in trinity after being convinced by the literature that it was wrong and pretty much laughably complex, and I believed JWs were the only ones not believing in it (among Chrisitans). Hell. Now it seems like pretty much no Christians believe in a fiery Hell anymore, but I remember a time when JWs were among very few who didn't think any Hell exists (except "being separated from God" by being dead).
Probably some more - one such thing would of course be non-biblical, namely family and friends - none of them on the outside. So indeed - - where would I go? As you can see from my above points, they all hinged on a belief that the WTS wouldn't lie or distort, and that the literature was right. Extremely naive, but I was brought up to think that way. I didn't know what circular reasoning or a 'straw man argument' was until a few years ago. Wow.
I must have been a used car salesman's dream customer.
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Knowing more than theology students / theologians
by DeusMauzzim ini remember i heard this some times (but not from the platform).
it would go something like: 'oh isn't it wonderful that with the help of the organization we know more about the bible than people who study theology at university?!'.
at least with theology you learn the meaning of difficult words like "biblical litteralism" .
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Awakened07
Actually, I not only heard it, I believed it at one point. Maybe not that we knew more than them when it came to history etc., but that we had biblical insights they didn't have and could "beat" them in a scriptural face-off.
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REALLY Think about it before you post
by avidbiblereader inthere is a lot of threads going back and forth both ways, almost like a battle line has been drawn between believers and atheists.
however, let's just say for the sake of argument, that all religions including the witnesses, are wrong but the bible in itself is right.. everything that it has foretold is going to happen and just as god told noah, in 7 more days i am going to make it rain, but this time he now speaks to all of us and says in just 7 more days i will wipe the earth clean of all those who have or are revolting/disagree against me.. how would you react then?
how would you live your next 7 days?
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Awakened07
Awakened, you have made some very valid points that cannot be argued or disputed, however comparing our time with twenty, thirty or forty years ago or more, there is no comparison. Our is time marked by fear as Christ said it would be, terrorism is not caused by religious oppression, do yourself a favor and do some research on the cause of terrorisn, it is a much deeper and broader subject than most would ever believe or think of. As the world hangs by a thread financially, we live in a world that is ready to implode and explode. There really are not that many more rabbits to pull out of the hat, when it happens, not IF as all the evidence and finaciers are saying. People will not act like they did in the 30's during the Great Depression, peoples minds have already been predisposed to enough violence, it will be New Orleans on a much bigger and nastier scale. It is coming, if you would read some of the articles that I read by some leading experts, this is not going to go away.
This may be true. I don't have an unshakeable faith in the goodness of humanity, and it wouldn't surprise me if what you describe will happen. If it does, and God then reveals Himself on top of that, I feel I have not done enough wrong in my life that He should take my life. Abraham reasoned with God - maybe I'll do the same if this comes to pass. :-)
If He kills me anyway, then there's not much I can do about it. I would be willing to change if there was something I'm now doing wrong that I could understand is wrong, but it would have to make sense to me. Otherwise I feel I would be living eternity in a 'paradise' that would be 'hell', or a prison.
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REALLY Think about it before you post
by avidbiblereader inthere is a lot of threads going back and forth both ways, almost like a battle line has been drawn between believers and atheists.
however, let's just say for the sake of argument, that all religions including the witnesses, are wrong but the bible in itself is right.. everything that it has foretold is going to happen and just as god told noah, in 7 more days i am going to make it rain, but this time he now speaks to all of us and says in just 7 more days i will wipe the earth clean of all those who have or are revolting/disagree against me.. how would you react then?
how would you live your next 7 days?
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Awakened07
With all due respect, man has had a pretty free rein so to speak, this freedom has led to a world that is unrecognizable by anyone who is 40+ years old Those emails we all recieve about "do you remember" is so true. The world in which I grew up, was somewhat peacable, respectful, free from relative fear even though we had those nuclear sit under your desk drills,TV was not violent and children listened to their parents and teachers, elderly ones too had respect. AIDS didnt claim tens of millions of lives and leave children orphaned, terrorismnever was mentioned, mothers stayed home to raise the kids, we never ever even thought the earth would warm until millions might have to retreat from the seashore,Extreme in weather was not the norm, govermental rulers were always questionable but not exposed like this administration and others. People worked for a living and had something to show, instead of a country saturated in personal, govermental and corporate debt. People didnt kill other students at school, we had gun clubs and bow and arrow clubs where kids brought them to school without fear. Kids played and childhood obesity wasnt the norm and childhood diabetics, childhood heart disease wasnt ever spoken of. Everybody had insurance, everybody got the little childhood diseases and laughed at them. Video games featuring mass death and killing yet alone porn wasnt even thought of or spoken of. Kids learned how to get along, not kill or hurt someone seriously. Childhood suicides were not heard of. No one feared of flying except those with the fear of flight but not terrorism, airport security wasnt mentioned. These are only several things, the list could go on and on.
If this has all happened within the last 20 couple of years and IF this is the result of Freedom and Progress.
I ask "How much more freedom and Progress can we take"?
While you do have a point, I could cite many things that were also bad/worse in "the good old days". Remember that the population of the planet has increased tremendously in just a few years, which in itself leads to more turmoil than before.
-The opportunities for black people were a lot worse a few decades ago, and not too long ago it was legal to discriminate against them. Same goes for gay people, but I'm not sure I want to open that can of worms... And for women - you see it as a bad thing, many women would see it as progress that they can choose to do what they feel will be fulfilling. AIDS may not have claimed many lives back in the 'good old days', but there were a lot of other deceases that are now either eradicated or under control. Violence may be entertainment today, and I agree it's not a good thing, but at least most countries don't have public executions as a form of entertainment anymore. And those that do are often religious states. Many things happened that were not talked about like it is now, like child abuse for instance.
Terrorism is not caused by freedom and progress. Terrorism is caused by cultures who live by codes of ethic that went out of date several centuries ago, are most often linked with religion, and often by people who feel oppressed. So pretty much the result of the opposite of freedom and progress.
We all remember best the good times and forget the bad. I remember the 80's as a good time, but then I'm forgetting the fear of nuclear war hanging over our heads at the time, as you also mention, and countless wars and famine in Africa etc. etc.
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REALLY Think about it before you post
by avidbiblereader inthere is a lot of threads going back and forth both ways, almost like a battle line has been drawn between believers and atheists.
however, let's just say for the sake of argument, that all religions including the witnesses, are wrong but the bible in itself is right.. everything that it has foretold is going to happen and just as god told noah, in 7 more days i am going to make it rain, but this time he now speaks to all of us and says in just 7 more days i will wipe the earth clean of all those who have or are revolting/disagree against me.. how would you react then?
how would you live your next 7 days?
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Awakened07
OK - let's for the sake of argument say God has every right to kill those who oppose him. Why would He want to? Why this need to kill? And what kind of punishment is that for a life style of, say someone like me: I've never killed or physically harmed anyone. In my life right now, which I admit is pretty dull - I don't do pretty much any of the things frowned upon in the Bible. But even if I did - why this need to kill me? Actually - even if I had killed someone, God could resurrect that person, and punish me somehow for once taking that person's life. But take my life away for ever? I don't see the point. Other than to fulfill some people's archaic sense of 'justice'.
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REALLY Think about it before you post
by avidbiblereader inthere is a lot of threads going back and forth both ways, almost like a battle line has been drawn between believers and atheists.
however, let's just say for the sake of argument, that all religions including the witnesses, are wrong but the bible in itself is right.. everything that it has foretold is going to happen and just as god told noah, in 7 more days i am going to make it rain, but this time he now speaks to all of us and says in just 7 more days i will wipe the earth clean of all those who have or are revolting/disagree against me.. how would you react then?
how would you live your next 7 days?
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Awakened07
On a more serious note: if it turned out most of the killing by God in the Bible somehow were just stories, parables, illustrations, and we had totally failed to translate and interpret the Bible or even put it together correctly, so that the God who spoke to me and others around me was in fact a loving, fair and just God - basically the good guy only wanting what's best for us - - - - then perhaps I would want to follow Him. But I have real problems with the whole "Do as I say or you die" thing. I realize believers consider God to have the right to take life, since He's the originator of life. I just don't agree. Discipline people so they can learn from their mistakes? Sure. Kill them? Not so much. I just can't marry an all loving, fair and just God with one who at the same time will kill millions of people. Even if the mass killings described in the Bible were misunderstood, this massive capitol punishment at Armageddon would kinda make that point moot.
I get the point that it's hard to know how one would react, and that to save one's life one would agree. But is that the point of this thread? What does that say about God in that case? I'm not sure I understand where you're going with this.