Posts by Awakened07

6

The J.W's Stance On Education: A Return To Original Christian Thought?

by Rapunzel in

jw
friends

as has been stated in many threads, most witnesses have long considered education - especially higher or university education - in a negative light.

most witnesses take a dim view of any educational pursuits beyond the bare minimum required by the socities and communities in which they live.

of course, this is not true for every single witness in every congregation around the world; there are some who "buck the trend," and pursue higher education [often facing some kind of sanction or ostracism for doing so].

Awakened07

Is Christianity fundamentally and radically - at its foundation and at its roots - an anti-intellectual (indeed anti-intellect) religion?

-It does rely on faith as opposed to intellectual thought, philosophy etc.:

1Cr 1:20-27 (NIV)"Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? | For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. | Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, | but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, | but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. | For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. | Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. | But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong."

1Cr 2:14 (NIV)"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."

These were once among my favorite verses, because it kinda showed that even though people didn't understand us, and even though many learned people would mock us, it was only because they didn't have the spiritual means to understand, and/or were blinded by Satan - not because there was anything wrong or foolish about our beliefs. I have since then come to a different conclusion. "What we teach may seem foolish to you, but that's just because you don't have the invisible force decoder ring to enable you to understand it."

9

Belief in an afterlife, and the difference in JW and 'apostate' thinking.

by Awakened07 in

-how powerful the thought of an afterlife is, if you can make people believe in it!

what power would religions have over people if it weren't for the teachings of an afterlife?

while reading crisis of conscience way back, it dawned on me that most of the things that separate 'apostate' thinking from jw thinking, and makes us appalled at some of the teachings, is simply that active jws truly believe that following the organization's guidance will lead to an ever lasting afterlife.

Awakened07

-How powerful the thought of an afterlife is, if you can make people believe in it! What power would religions have over people if it weren't for the teachings of an afterlife?

While reading Crisis of Conscience way back, it dawned on me that most of the things that separate 'apostate' thinking from JW thinking, and makes us appalled at some of the teachings, is simply that active JWs truly believe that following the organization's guidance will lead to an ever lasting afterlife.

"You want me to dedicate my entire life to going to several weekly meetings, prepare for those meetings, conducting personal- and family studies, prepare for preaching, go out and preach, study with interested ones, go to conventions, prepare for talks, get only a brief education, get a low paying job, put my hobbies on hold... Well, I'm not sure. -What was that? -I'll make up for it in a perfect, everlasting afterlife? Wow, really!? Oh well sure - as long as I get another shot at life, why not? What - I can't have blood transfusions, and neither can my family? Well... I don't know then... What? Think about that afterlife? Yeah, you're right! What am I thinking!? What use is this life if what I do here prevents me from getting that perfect afterlife? Why would I jeopardize that by taking a blood transfusion? If worse comes to worst, I would see my loved ones 'on the other side' anyway. No biggie. So yeah - sign me up!"

"What - my uncle Carl died, only thirty years old!? So young... Oh well - he'll be resurrected anyway. No biggie."

"-His funeral memorial was mostly about the organization and not his life! Well, that's only fitting, seeing how the organization is what ensured his belief in an afterlife. We'll see him later anyway, so why not praise Jehovah and his org. at this time instead of Carl?"

"So they changed their doctrine because of new light, so that now it's OK to receive organ transplants while for some time it was not. So what? Those who died because they were loyal to the current 'light' at the time will be resurrected and rewarded anyway. No biggie."

It permeates everything. Anything non-believers can fling at a JW can bounce back with the reasoning of a perfect afterlife where everything will be OK.

"You were molested by an elder, he's still an elder, and it was not reported to the authorities? Well, that's really sad, but God will heal all wounds later on, and none of what happens in this life will matter once we get to the next life."

But Jehovah's Witnesses are not alone. All religions use the same ruse to some extent. Nowadays, few of them will ask you to do something that would potentially actually kill you, but many ask you to spend a lot of time, energy and money toward the faith, in order to be right with God and get that afterlife.

It has to be the choice of the individual how they decide to live their life of course. People's time is their own to do what they want. But should we respect it or allow it to continue when people's lives are at stake?

Now, religious people may interject here that if one does not believe in any afterlife, then one's eternal afterlife is at stake, and that that is even graver than if this current life is spent in a 'less than perfect' manner, or one dies prematurely.

But I've said it here before, and I'll say it again; One thing we can be 100% sure of is that we're alive here and now. Religious people can say they know that they'll be granted an afterlife, but we'll only know once we're dead (or not know since we'll be dead, as the case may be). And then this life has already been spent.

-If someone offers you an eternal afterlife in return for certain 'favors' or actions that seriously interfere with your current life, then you should ask for the same amount of certainty that you have about being alive currently; 100% certain evidence.

In my opinion.

37

Interesting Banter on the Watchtower Comments Page

by V in

thought i would share this chat with you from the watchtower comments channel.. message from biblestudentsteve:.

nice production.

very slick.

Awakened07

Why would he read "dozens of anti-JW books" and then have no interest in debating you? He must have spent quite some time acquainting himself with that kind of literature, and wouldn't have anything to lose by debating you, neither time (which he evidently is not against using on this matter) or faith.

He seems to be among those who say "Well, it's an org. run by fallible men making mistakes, but Jehovah will make it right in the end". And that's OK I guess, except this particular org. says they are the only mouthpiece of God on earth today. I do not understand why God's org. today can be allowed to have countless flaws in doctrine (as this guy must know) and still be God's only channel, in a time period which - if their understanding were correct - would be just as important, if not more so, than any biblical period. And to say in the same breath that the Bible is infallible, despite having been written by fallible men.

They often counter this by pointing to men being fallible and doing the wrong things in biblical times as well but were still chosen by God, but what those people did was one thing; what they wrote another. What they wrote is supposed to be infallible, and so there's no reason the WT's ("God's only channel") literature and doctrine shouldn't be as well. Not that I can see anyway.

38

NEW TRACT CAMPAIGN PLANNED....

by sir82 in

jw
friends

....for october 20 - november 16.. there is a new tract to be introduced, with the title "do you want to know the truth?".

it is not a "kingdom news" campaign - after the campaign, this tract will join the "regular rotation" of tracts to be used in the field misery.. it is designed to replace the "do you want to know more about the bible" tract - the goal is to use it to start "bible" studies.. the goal is to cover all of the congregation's territory in 4 weeks, similar to other campaigns in the past.

unlike other campaigns, though, the congregations can order as many as they would like - they are not limited to 50 per publisher.

Awakened07

There is a new tract to be introduced, with the title "Do You Want to Know the Truth?"
It is designed to replace the "Do You Want to Know More About the Bible" tract - the goal is to use it to start "Bible" studies.

-Is this a trend of shying away more and more from their own message/teachings, either because of embarrassment or because their message as-is just doesn't create enough interest anymore, or both?

While I was still active, this seemed to be already apparent. Offering "short and easy Bible courses" instead of "Bible studies", then pretty much focusing entirely on the WT publications at the door, then a reluctance of saying who we were at the door, and now mentioning the Bible itself seems to be too "sales prohibiting" so that they've changed the name of the tract from "more about the Bible" to "the Truth". What's next? "Would you like to learn about an organization that will make you live long and prosper?" ?

Maybe I'm putting too much into this, but it seems to me they're getting more and more generic in an effort to 'hook' those who wouldn't be interested right away otherwise.

56

"There Is A God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind"

by Open mind in

author's name is anthony flew.. this book was sitting right next to "the god delusion" at the library, so in fairness to my username, i checked it out.

haven't read anything but the cover flaps so far.

anybody else read this yet?.

Awakened07

-Just wanted quickly to say that Dawkins has said that his 'tirade' against the old testament God in the God Delusion was meant in a humorous manner (hence the long list). That said, it shouldn't be too hard to find a scripture for each adjective.

I believe he says it was an attempt at humor in this video. I won't be able to post again until Monday (so you are free to slander me in the mean time ).

75

Why Guess About Dates At All?

by Pickled in

jw
friends

i posted this on another thread and realized that it was really off topic, so i made it a separate topic because i would really like to read your thoughts about this... .

does anyone know if any reasons are given by the wtbts about why they feel it is such an important part of their teachings to keep guessing about dates and the years things are going to happen?

it seems that it adds nothing to whatever they believe about the bible, and it has only served to create such confusion among their members over the years.

Awakened07

I think it's perfectly logical that a Bible-based religion would try to come up with dates for the End. Biblical prophecies are sometimes rather specific, even with explanations of what the symbols mean, how long the time periods were etc., so they have something to work from.

In some cases, to get even the prophecies that were supposed to be fulfilled back in biblical times to have come true, one has to stretch the time period of the prophecy several hundred years after the wrathful prophecy was exacted, and all the people it was intended for was long since dead. So stretching prophecies to fit with some kind of fulfillment within a thousand years or so is no biggie from the get-go.

The end was 'very soon' two and three thousand years ago as well. Some of Jesus' prophecies didn't come to pass then, so what's the logical conclusion? That he was simply wrong? No, not to a Bible believer. It must mean he was talking about a future event. When though, when two thousand years have passed? No wonder they try to find out. We were promised a second coming after all. Since the Bible is the only book they can go by on these matters, it's easy to understand that they want to extrapolate on the prophecies that are already there (second fulfillment), to come up with a date that coincides with our lifetime ('cause it would suck if that date turned out to be two hundred years from now... it's always in our lifetime, notice that?).

That, and you gather a larger crowd faster when you give specific dates. Well - for a time at least. People tend to tire of the boy who cries 'wolf!' for several decades.

10

The Cosmic Shell Game- Where is God hiding?

by nvrgnbk in

jw
friends

ebon musings: the atheism pagesbuilding blocks the cosmic shell game.

the argument from religious confusion.

in a world of darkness, i am a messenger.

Awakened07

We live in a world of approximation.
What is the exact value of pi?

So - if I get this analogy correctly - as long as people make an effort and get their beliefs approximately right (like those hypothetical "cave men"), they'll be OK with God?

If so - - there is a difference between saying that pi is "1.8", "3.0", "3.14159265" and ... "cow".

Religions are sometimes so different that one can't approximate between them. They at times have nothing in common, but all still profess to be right.

10

The Cosmic Shell Game- Where is God hiding?

by nvrgnbk in

jw
friends

ebon musings: the atheism pagesbuilding blocks the cosmic shell game.

the argument from religious confusion.

in a world of darkness, i am a messenger.

Awakened07

Burn, you seem to have come to the conclusion that there may be several ways to God, equally qualified, and that as long as we're sincere, the Real God will take care of us in the afterlife. This is a nice sentiment, but it is your choice and conclusion. I think the point of the article is that we cannot really know for sure; we all make our decisions on what kind of personality God or the gods should have, based on our experiences, interpretations of texts etc.

real one posted once that he used to not believe in a fiery Hell, because of the usual reasons; that God wouldn't be so cruel etc., but that now he does believe in a fiery Hell, because he thought he found evidence for it in the Bible, and he could not decide how God is supposed to be - he is what he is, and if he is OK with a fiery hell, so be it. Some people feel there are ample reasons to believe in such a place, while others feel it's a similar amount of evidence to the contrary. And this point is one that can be somewhat decided on Bible verses; not all controversies are "so simple"(!).

You will not live forever in a heaven according to real one. real one may live forever in a heavenly place according to you, because you have such a forgiving view of God, but who's right? real one is but one person with a different view from yours. There are millions on millions of others. What if God actually is a bastard? Can we wish that personality away from him? real one decided he couldn't.

-In a theistic universe, the true religion may not even have been invented yet. At one point in time none of the current religions existed yet, but even so, people living back then believed just as strongly as people do now. If an episcopalian Christian was transported back there in a time machine, he/she would probably sentence all of them to an afterlife in eternal torment.

21

why did the "demons" only go after those "strongin the truth"

by looloo in

i heard that when a "strong " jw supposedly had demon problems (it was probably just the wind in reality) but i also heard that demons affected the ones that were "weak" and were not regular at meetings etc perhaps because they had second hand furniture lol

Awakened07

If you believe hard enough in gnomes, then the shadow you saw scurrying across the yard at night probably was a gnome to you, although it was really a squirrel.

58

Have you gained more than lost?

by compound complex in

greetings, my friends:.

the above question is not in regard to one's weight.

that would be a rude question .... in terms of your jw experience, have the losses you've suffered been offset by the good you've gained?.

Awakened07

I lost 'everything', but since 'everything' turned out to be nothing in the first place, I didn't lose anything after all.

Since then, I've gained a lot of knowledge that I'm happy about, and I'm in the slow process of gaining a few close friends. I think I'll emerge on the plus side.