She was lovely. She often said as she got close to her end that she couldn’t find her “bucket”( as in wanting to “kick it”)
l miss her now. She was Mouthy but kind and true always.
humbled
JoinedPosts by humbled
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Grace Gough ( RIP ) left the JW cult in her 70s and went on to help 1000s to escape the cult
by Not_Culty inhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj7ilnoxvu4.
she helped me.
sent me my first copy of crisis of conscience (free) grace has been featured on many talk shows, including sally jesse raphael, raising awareness of support for cult abuse survivors.
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Good Guys VS Bad Guys: Facts Nobody Wants to KNow
by TerryWalstrom infacts we don't want to know.
the purpose of war is to kill humans.. .
which humans?.
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humbled
Luhe- thanks- there is a difference between co-existing and cohabiting. There are debates about which offers a happier outlook for folks. If you like l will amend my remark to suit you- we will continue to co-exist.
Politics is often a choice between two or more options, and we have to work out which is the least evil ('lesser of the two evils').
To choose the lesser of the two evils, we have to work out if things are morally equivalent or not.-luheWhat you say is what l no longer accept as reasonable. The goal of many governments have become twisted somehow.The lesser of two evils isn’t “lesser” enough any more.
Was it you, luhe, or someone else who remarked that there is no difference between the two main parties in this country? That as far as war goes- they are the same? both indeed serve Big Money. So I can only choose between one black hat or another black hat?
No thanks.
I have to wonder if any creature on earth can survive if money has become the only “End” for which we strive instead of being only the means to that end.
The Rape of Nanking was a monumental evil. But read the Newsweek excerpt above—the aftermath of this massive crime must -MUST -make us wonder how people can be benefited by value systems in our governments that would rather do business with the Japanese perpetrators than acknowledge that hundreds of thousands of Chinese suffered wholesale rape, slaughter and torture.
Were I young again, I would never be a soldier. Human life is not valued enough. Not here, not abroad. Not in the highest levels of power. To much greed.
( I must be finishing my spoons for market tomorrow . Shouldn’t be here but yet should be too. Very glad there is conversation on this. Appreciate that very much.)
Edit: Vanderhoven 7- your assessment fits with many of our best definition of a just war but for many of us the “good guys” seem to be driven by many of the forces that drove “bad guys” to fight”
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Good Guys VS Bad Guys: Facts Nobody Wants to KNow
by TerryWalstrom infacts we don't want to know.
the purpose of war is to kill humans.. .
which humans?.
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humbled
TD-
Moral equivalence is a close cousin to relativism. Both are forms of polemic.
A simple example of moral equivalence would be the claim (Regardless of whether it is made explicitly or implicitly) that U.S. use of nuclear weapons in WWII puts it on the same level of immorality as Nazi Germany.I wasn’t sure whether l couldn’t understand because of lack of education or because l couldn’t see moral equivalency in this discussion being of much use. It does not seem useful for purposes of cohabiting on this earth to measure who has done the worst things ever. Also, it would seem needful that no one should be above reproach. That would get us right back into assigning white hats and black hats again. That said there are individual acts in war that may or may not be judged as moral or immoral(the fire bombing of Dresden or the A-bombs on Japan) but certainly the entire progrsm of Nazi aggression was immoral no matter any individual military action and the Allies were justified in general.
But I really am wondering if polemics serve us well in this discussion. Polemics are (patience please) folks arguing slightly adverse views, two opposing sides figuring out who is right and who is wrong? Good guys bad guys ? Blurring lines again?
You have trouble equating the destruction of lives by the US nuclear bombs vs. the lives destroyed through the immorality of Nazi Germany and I have trouble with the torture, the murders, the rapes in the Nanking Massacre vs.a world that reoffends those lives by a failure to acknowledge this evil event. I truly don’t see how we can improve our lot in this world by trying to figure out good guys vs. bad. Somehow we have to be careful in talking about these things. But be honest too.
What Chinese man or woman who felt the atrocities in 1937 believe in the moral good of governments (even their own!) that effectively erased the history of their unbelievable slaughter and sexual abuse for political reasons? We prosecute Holocaust deniers, right? But for political reasons these victims were “buried” alive. This is a crime too.
Is there any value in holding a minimal standard for human conduct if we will not be fair? If we call out egregious wrongs when they happen- regardless of the players in the matter- maybe we would have less politicking and have more productive governing?
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Good Guys VS Bad Guys: Facts Nobody Wants to KNow
by TerryWalstrom infacts we don't want to know.
the purpose of war is to kill humans.. .
which humans?.
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humbled
TD- l don’t understand what you mean by saying “moral equivalency game”. Please explain it. I hate the evils done under any national authority—even the ones done by my own country.
Luhe—good point about Obama and the Nobel Peace Prize. What l like or don’t like about Obama’s is not based on race.
The blurring of distinction between the “good guys” and the “bad guys” is sometimes done through the governments themselves who manipulate history for economic reasons.
“....the Rape of Nanking remains an obscure incident. Although the death toll exceeds the immediate number of deaths from the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (140,000 and 70,000 respectively, by the end of 1945) and even the total civilian casualties for several European countries during the entire war (Great Britain lost 61,000 civilians, France 108,000, Belgium 101,000, and the Netherlands 242,000), the horrors of the Nanking massacre remain virtually unknown to people outside Asia. The Rape of Nanking did not penetrate the world consciousness in the same manner as the Jewish Holocaust or Hiroshima because the victims themselves remained silent. The custodian of the curtain of silence was politics. The People's Republic of China, Taiwan, and even the United States all contributed to the historical neglect of this event for reasons deeply rooted in the cold war. After the 1949 Communist revolution in China, neither the People's Republic of China nor Taiwan demanded wartime reparations from Japan (as Israel had from Germany) because the two governments were competing for Japanese trade and political recognition. And even the United States, faced with the threat of communism in the Soviet Union and mainland China, sought to ensure the friendship and loyalty of its former enemy Japan. In this manner, cold-war tensions permitted Japan to escape much of the intense critical examination that its wartime ally was forced to undergo.”
Newsweek, Nov. 30, 1997 -
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Good Guys VS Bad Guys: Facts Nobody Wants to KNow
by TerryWalstrom infacts we don't want to know.
the purpose of war is to kill humans.. .
which humans?.
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humbled
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/511454/
Obama doesn’t get a pass, LUHE. If the link provided above is any good it is s thoughtful and damning criticism of his drone policy-a huge arrogation of killing authority.
It is hard to figure out the true and false of matters as so many have said. —l suspect that the powers of government are themselves governed by the vast power of multinational corporations. Look at the records billions of dollars made by more than the oil interests but also by the arms and military manufacturers . It is astounding. And they have no moral codes here of any sort: check out the sales of U.S manufactured weapons that go to nations with oppressive dictatorships. These corporations pay vast sums to lobby the U.S. Congress. Don’t take my word for it—check it out.
No, the people who are sent off to war don't commit crimes, it's the people that send them.
Some veterans who volunteer for service who returned from Iraq and refuse further deployments when they sense the actions are “illegal “—they discerned the calculated evil of what they were sent to do. And they do not say their governments “made a mistake”. No. They know that there was wrong and purposeful abuse of military force.
These huge corporations have no interest in peace.The US elections are virtually run by big money and then officials are lobbied day by day by these same“creditors”.
When Big Money owns a government it eventually won’t care about people. Not even loyal soldiers.
We must find a way to re-new governments to serve people’s welfare —honestly.
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Good Guys VS Bad Guys: Facts Nobody Wants to KNow
by TerryWalstrom infacts we don't want to know.
the purpose of war is to kill humans.. .
which humans?.
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humbled
https://www.cnn.com/2013/03/19/opinion/iraq-war-oil-juhasz/index.html
The above article has more food for thought.
What do we tell our children when rogue despots and terrorists don’t have to lie about the U.S. enriching special interests by abusing its power and reputation as the“good guy”?
Edit:Soldiers will go through horrors for a good cause. But they are crushed when they are used as hit-men for big money.
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Good Guys VS Bad Guys: Facts Nobody Wants to KNow
by TerryWalstrom infacts we don't want to know.
the purpose of war is to kill humans.. .
which humans?.
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humbled
True.
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Good Guys VS Bad Guys: Facts Nobody Wants to KNow
by TerryWalstrom infacts we don't want to know.
the purpose of war is to kill humans.. .
which humans?.
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humbled
The U.S.A. is no worse than many other governments. Many are worse for sure. But once l learned that our government lies to us about who, why and how the US is attacking and how it treats the blood of its citizens—l do not believe, don’t trust in the rightness of my government. I don’t automatically genuflect at a declaration of war. Blood should count for good if you have to spill it.
United States soldiers fought and died in WWll —as did fighters from all over. I never heard a veteran regret that they fought that war.
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Good Guys VS Bad Guys: Facts Nobody Wants to KNow
by TerryWalstrom infacts we don't want to know.
the purpose of war is to kill humans.. .
which humans?.
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humbled
In 1901, novelist Mark Twain wrote about the aftermath of the war for the Phillipines:
We have robbed a trusting friend of his land and his liberty; we have invited clean young men to shoulder a discredited musket and do bandit's work under a flag which bandits have been accustomed to fear, not to follow; we have debauched America's honor and blackened her face before the world.
What Twain wrote is much your thoughts here, Terry. My father would likely have agreed as well—And he was a veteran of three wars. Drafted as a teen for WWll, war again as a reservist for Korea he stayed in until after a final deployment to Vietnam and then he retired in 1971. He became disillusioned. He saw the abuse of military force for no good cause, the needless loss of young soldiers and the harm done to civilians. (He adopted a orphan at the end of a hardship tour to Korea 1967, a four year old girl, my sister Meg, who brought our total of children to nine.)
He drank a lot.
I have regard for young men and women who serve for ideals. But l have contempt for cold blooded aggression and underhanded subversion that spill blood for power.
I was raised around the military. I was raised to believe in a God that blessed some wars. But what we humans are doing on earth is sick.
There is unarguable evidence of criminal intervention by the USA in Nicaragua and the Congo. Criminal, immoral, irresponsible —l understand why the U.S. would not join the World Court. The actual government records of those CIA crimes are available IF PEOPLE WANT THE FACTS as you say.
Other predations of the US from earlier times noted: the Mexican War in 1848 to take land (Not to mention the genocide of native people) and the pocketing of Phillipines by slaughter. And more. And more.
The idea that any person or any nation can pretend they stand on moral high ground after destabilizing other countries and murdering their people is silly. The US is a super power for sure. But it is not honest about how it does it’s business.
The U.S.A. is no worse than many other governments. Many are worse for sure. But once l learned that our government lies to us about who, why and how the US is attacking and how it treats the blood of its citizens—l do not believe, don’t trust in the rightness of my government. I don’t automatically genuflect at a declaration of war. Blood should count for good if you have to spill it.
I am glad you brought this up, Terry. You struggled to do the right thing and went to prison and f—ked away years with the JWs. It’s hard to figure this stuff out. I think so,
My dad did the best he could to figure it out too. He survived all that war—and survived the alcohol by leaving it alone after a time. That stuff tore him down but he moved on. We are moving on too. We move away and don’t justify a wrong path we took.
It’s a tough topic. But it is good to be clear about what facts are. And good to face them.
Maeve
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The speed with which I exited!!
by joe134cd ini was just thinking at how quickly the process was from pimi - pimo - pomo.
i must of spent about 10 years trudging along in the organization very unhappily.
but from the initial stages of learning ttatt to physically walking out the door the process took about 18 months.
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humbled
Jrjw—The US eBay has new copies for $30. You are in Scotland?
edit: see the thread of free download of Fred Frank books in recent conversations. ( it actually costs @ $10). His CoC helped me make my exit. Good luck.