the co visit during those meetings you guys go to.
Actually the CO's meeting with the elders was much more interesting than you might think.
At this one very uncharacteristic meeting with the CO, he wanted to discuss phone sex. It was really surreal. He was like, "Now you brothers need to realize that if you're on the phone with somebody you're not married to, and either one of you masterbate to the point of climax while on the phone, then that's loose conduct. And that goes for instant message chat and webcams as well." I was like WTF.
no, it's not a vast conspiracy for the governing body to get rich.
it's about power and control, but not personal power and control.
the watchtower society is a living, nigh-sentient entity unto itself.
Under_Believer,
I see what you're saying in a lot of ways, but as somebody who was pretty close to the top in the organization, I can tell you that a lot of what you said just isn't so.
The Governing Body are the all-inclusive leaders of the organization. They have been since the body was officially formed in the 70's. Every single thing that affects the publisher at the purely local level...it all originates from that oval table in Brooklyn.
Now, how do they keep that grip so tight for so long? Well, who do the congregations answer to? The committees. They report and answer directly to the Service Committe, and they recieve all of their instruction from the Writing Committee. The Governing Body controls these committees. So that takes care of that. But how can they keep this engine running as so? Well, look at how they get new people appointed to that body.
Only people hand-picked by the old timers like Jaracz, Barber, and up until early '06, Bert Schroeder...only good ole boys that will echo whatever these older men say will be appointed as Governing Body members.
Now lets talk about how the GB live. Let me assure you: they live like royalty. This is masked cleverly by their not having much disposable income. But even there, they have more than you can imagine. They meet wealthy people in congregations everywhere they go that slip them checks and cash like you wouldn't believe. But that's because the publishers that do this think of it as a holy contribution. Aside from cash, they are flown all around the world in first class, those that drive have some type of luxury car. And they live in what would be unattainable to any average person living in Brooklyn.
But all of these physical needs that they have taken care of are nothing when compared to the power they have over 6 million people. In the book The Myth of Certainty, Daniel Taylor writes: "The primary goal of all institutions and subcultures is self-preservation. Preserving the faith is central to God’s plan for human history; preserving particular religious institutions is not. Do not expect those who run the institutions to be sensitive to the difference."
When you have all of these things, every personal need taken care of, everything free, no worries like the everyday working man has...along with absolute power over the lives of 6 million people, you do everything you can to keep that power. Every policy that has been introduced and enforced by that body over the last 30 years has been done for the purpose of keeping a tight grip on those simple minds that keep the contribution boxes full.
well i know very little about scientology, but from what i have seen on this board, alot of xjw's feel it is even worse than jw's.
what is it about scientology that makes it seem worse?
the reason i ask is i was passing through cincinnati the other day returning home from dayton and there was a scientology church in downtown cincinnati.
From Wikipedia:
Basic Scientology beliefs:
well i know very little about scientology, but from what i have seen on this board, alot of xjw's feel it is even worse than jw's.
what is it about scientology that makes it seem worse?
the reason i ask is i was passing through cincinnati the other day returning home from dayton and there was a scientology church in downtown cincinnati.
Well, from my very limited knowledge of the religion, it seems that Scientologists all believe that they, individually, are gods of some sort.
I mean their belief system is very focused on self, and attaining some kind of greater power from within.
I guess that is how celebrities embrace it so easily.
I talked to him on the phone last week and he seems to be doing ok for a man of 84. I look forward to visiting him in person within the coming months.
As far as his "work" carrying on after he dies, he speaks of a former District Overseer that is a good friend of his. The DO left the organization after the 9/1/80 letter to all traveling overseers went out. If you don't remember, it was the letter that told traveling overseers to be on the watch in congregations for signs of apostasy, and not just outright signs of dissention, but even people who simply don't believe in key doctrinal teachings of the Watchtower.
Anyway, seems to me, somebody like this DO would do a fine job in keeping Commentary Press going, maybe even writing a book himself.
the society claims that all appointments of elders and ministerial servants in the congregation are made by holy spirit.
now, the inexperienced or new witness is under the impression that jehovah, by means of his holy spirit, puts it into the hearts and minds of the body of elders that so-and-so is ready to serve, and the appointment happens accordingly.. but they actually employ a sort of deception with this process, because when they say, "holy spirit directs all appointments of men in the congregation", they actually mean that each brother considered for appointment is examined to see if he has the qualities listed by paul in his letter to timothy about the qualities of congregation shepherds.
so they reason that since that writing of paul's was inspired by holy spirit, then by extension, the appointments which happen as a result of using that list of qualities to examine an individual, the appointment is made by holy spirit.. this is like saying that people are hand-picked by simon for american idol because the regional producers of the show use a list of things to look for in contestants and that list just happened to be written by simon.
I was one to believe that the h. spirit directed the appointments because these brothers were to meet the scriptural requirements.
Juni,
To say that "holy spirit directs every appointment because the qualifications from the scriptures are examined with the person that is being considered for appointment"...that is like saying that I send somebody to a car lot and I give them a list of features to look for in a car for me. Then they are to buy the car that meets my requirements and bring it home to me. Could one say that I hand-picked the car? Not at all. In my mind, I might have been thinking Lexus. But they could return to me with a BMW instead. See what I mean?
the society claims that all appointments of elders and ministerial servants in the congregation are made by holy spirit.
now, the inexperienced or new witness is under the impression that jehovah, by means of his holy spirit, puts it into the hearts and minds of the body of elders that so-and-so is ready to serve, and the appointment happens accordingly.. but they actually employ a sort of deception with this process, because when they say, "holy spirit directs all appointments of men in the congregation", they actually mean that each brother considered for appointment is examined to see if he has the qualities listed by paul in his letter to timothy about the qualities of congregation shepherds.
so they reason that since that writing of paul's was inspired by holy spirit, then by extension, the appointments which happen as a result of using that list of qualities to examine an individual, the appointment is made by holy spirit.. this is like saying that people are hand-picked by simon for american idol because the regional producers of the show use a list of things to look for in contestants and that list just happened to be written by simon.
Yes, and the worst part about corrupt elders is how the congregation just says, "Well, Jehovah let them stay in their position so it would serve as a test of faith." How can that thinking be justified? That would be like me saying that I was going to stand by and watch as my son got molested because it would be my way of "testing" him to see if he would defend himself. Absolutely ridiculous to profess a relationship with a "loving, heavenly Father" and then think that He would put His children through such things.
the society claims that all appointments of elders and ministerial servants in the congregation are made by holy spirit.
now, the inexperienced or new witness is under the impression that jehovah, by means of his holy spirit, puts it into the hearts and minds of the body of elders that so-and-so is ready to serve, and the appointment happens accordingly.. but they actually employ a sort of deception with this process, because when they say, "holy spirit directs all appointments of men in the congregation", they actually mean that each brother considered for appointment is examined to see if he has the qualities listed by paul in his letter to timothy about the qualities of congregation shepherds.
so they reason that since that writing of paul's was inspired by holy spirit, then by extension, the appointments which happen as a result of using that list of qualities to examine an individual, the appointment is made by holy spirit.. this is like saying that people are hand-picked by simon for american idol because the regional producers of the show use a list of things to look for in contestants and that list just happened to be written by simon.
Ok OntheWayOut,
I don't really agree with you because that's just how blind the average Witness follows along with what's going on. They are told, "Oh, he was appointed by holy spirit to be an elder", and that's good enough for them!
For instance, my grandmother, dead now, one of the first witnesses in the city, baptized in the 30's, died a faithful witness. Well, about 5 years ago when she was around 80, she allowed her disfellowshipped granddaughter to move in with her. This brought 2 rather new and inexperienced elders to her house to give her the "inquisition". It pissed her off magnificently. She had been pioneering for 20 years before these men were even born! But when she and I talked about the incident, she would say, "But I know that holy spirit appointed them so I have to yeild to their direction." And I picked her brain more on this. By the end of the conversation, I had gotten out of her that she actually thought that holy spirit swept through the Kingdom Hall into the brains of the elders and chanted, "This man is ready to be appointed". But its nothing of the sort. And that is truly how the average witness thinks it happens.
I could walk into any random kingdom hall, put on an act, be something I'm not, brown-nose the right people, and I could be appointed in no more than a year. Just because somebody passes the 1 Timothy chapter 3 exam doesn't mean that its who they actually are.
the society claims that all appointments of elders and ministerial servants in the congregation are made by holy spirit.
now, the inexperienced or new witness is under the impression that jehovah, by means of his holy spirit, puts it into the hearts and minds of the body of elders that so-and-so is ready to serve, and the appointment happens accordingly.. but they actually employ a sort of deception with this process, because when they say, "holy spirit directs all appointments of men in the congregation", they actually mean that each brother considered for appointment is examined to see if he has the qualities listed by paul in his letter to timothy about the qualities of congregation shepherds.
so they reason that since that writing of paul's was inspired by holy spirit, then by extension, the appointments which happen as a result of using that list of qualities to examine an individual, the appointment is made by holy spirit.. this is like saying that people are hand-picked by simon for american idol because the regional producers of the show use a list of things to look for in contestants and that list just happened to be written by simon.
The Society claims that all appointments of elders and ministerial servants in the congregation are made by Holy Spirit. Now, the inexperienced or new Witness is under the impression that Jehovah, by means of His holy spirit, puts it into the hearts and minds of the body of elders that so-and-so is ready to serve, and the appointment happens accordingly.
But they actually employ a sort of deception with this process, because when they say, "holy spirit directs all appointments of men in the congregation", they actually mean that each brother considered for appointment is examined to see if he has the qualities listed by Paul in his letter to Timothy about the qualities of congregation shepherds. So they reason that since that writing of Paul's was inspired by holy spirit, then by extension, the appointments which happen as a result of using that list of qualities to examine an individual, the appointment is made by holy spirit.
This is like saying that people are hand-picked by Simon for American Idol because the regional producers of the show use a list of things to look for in contestants and that list just happened to be written by Simon.
Anybody with common sense knows that a man can fake these qualities, and make everybody at the Kingdom Hall think that he is a good man and displays holy conduct. This is how corrupt men, men seeking position and authority, and even child molestors get into positions of authority within the organization. It's not because Jehovah "allows it to happen in order to test people". That's ridiculous.
Most people in the organization would not be able to correctly explain the "official" stance on how holy spirit directs appointments. If they did know, it would probably cause much more doubt.
Any thoughts?
to be honest, the first chapter is awful, horribly written, and feels almost like the author feels he has to justify himself with the book.. now, that being said, the chapters on legalism and double standards, 1975, "this generation", and so forth are brilliant, powerful, and should be read by every one of jehovah's witnesses.. just my thoughts..
Can anybody tell me why it is that I feel completely depressed and almost physically sick when reading the book? This is puzzling me.
