Posts by Koiné

posted

12
And Jesus Will Answer, "I Know You Not!"
by cameo-d in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
matthew 7:.

21not every one that saith unto me, lord, lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my father which is in heaven.. 22many will say to me in that day, lord, lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?

and in thy name have cast out devils?
Koiné

Hallo,
Please read this statement about Jehovah's witnesses view on doing the lords will (and on charity ) and give some comments.
Thanks.


LLC February 5, 2001
Inquiry into the Definition of
Charities and Related Organisations
C/- The Treasury
Parkes Place
PARKES ACT 2600
Dear Sir/Madam:

Re: Submission to Inquiry into the Definition of Charities and Related Organisations

Please find enclosed three copies of a brief submission in response to the Inquiry into the Definition of Charities and Related Organisations by Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Australia.
We apologise for the lateness in providing you with this document which came about as a result of key members of our staff being overseas during most of January.
Thank you for providing us with the opportunity to make this submission.
Yours faithfully,
WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF AUSTRALIA

W. M. Lloyd
Vice-President
Encls.
Vincent Toole email: [email protected]
INQUIRY INTO THE DEFINITION OF CHARITIES AND RELATED ORGANISATIONS
A Submission by
the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Australia
on behalf of
Jehovah’s Witnesses in Australia
February, 2001
Table of Contents
Who Are Jehovah’s Witnesses? ........................................................................................ 4
The Public Ministry ....................................................................................................... 4
The Internal Ministry .................................................................................................... 4
Disaster Relief and Church Construction Program ....................................................... 5
Funding the Society’s Activities ................................................................................... 5
The Purposes and Practice of Christian Religion and “Charity” Are Inseparable ............ 5
Overseas Definitions of Charity ....................................................................................... 7
Issues Regarding Definitions Used in Australia Compared to Other Countries .............. 8
Conclusion ........................................................................................................................ 8

Who Are Jehovah’s Witnesses?
Jehovah’s Witnesses are individual Christians who worship Jehovah, the supreme God of the universe and the Creator of it. ¾ Isaiah 43:10, 12; Psalm 83:18.
The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Australia (the “Society”) is a not-for-profit religious organization registered under the New South Wales Companies Act 1961 as a company limited by guarantee. It is the legally registered body that acts on behalf of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Australia. The objects of the Society are set out in the attached Articles and Memorandum of Association.
The primary attributes of the Witnesses and the Society are religious, charitable, educational, and community service oriented. Their activities are based on a love for God and their fellowman and can be divided into two main areas, the public ministry and the internal ministry.
The Public Ministry
The public ministry includes home visitation in the community. The Society produces Bible-based printed material for distribution without charge. These publications include magazines, pamphlets, tracts, and books containing religious and moral discussion based on Bible principles which are designed to uplift mankind. They incorporate up-to-date medical, scientific, social, and educational information that addresses real-life problems. Bible studies are conducted on a regular basis with those in the community who desire to get to understand the Bible and how the principles it contains can assist them in various areas of life, such as within the family. In this way, comfort and hope is provided to many in the community who are suffering distress or pressure. Help is also given to those wanting assistance in areas involving Christian ethics, such as maintaining honest conduct, strengthening marriage bonds and rearing children. Other persons may desire help to stop smoking, abusing drugs, or engaging in physical violence or to improve their moral and, at times, physical cleanness.
The Internal Ministry
The internal ministry involves assistance, training, education, and teaching provided to members of the various congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses by the Society and those it appoints as ministers and elders. This ministry includes regular Bible study and training for the public ministry through educational meetings which form part of the Witnesses’ program of worship; a school for those associating with the congregation to improve their reading, comprehension, and public speaking abilities; and schools for ministers of the congregation and for missionaries. It includes a “shepherding” program to assist those in the congregation who are suffering in any way from illness, unemployment, family problems, or various day-to-day problems which are a part of modern society. In addition, the Society has established a hospital liaison network service to support those who want to avoid blood transfusions by providing the most up-to-date medical information published from around the world to medical practitioners who are willing to accept such assistance in treating Jehovah’s Witnesses. This service has also assisted hospitals in learning about and adopting new and safer treatments that avoid or minimize the well-recognized dangers associated with blood transfusion therapy. In doing so, it has aided the medical profession to be of greater assistance to the general community.
Disaster Relief and Church Construction Program
Supporting the public and internal ministries is the Disaster Relief Fund and the church construction program, both of which are administered by the Society. Contributions received for disaster relief are used in times of major crises including cyclones, floods, fires, earthquakes, and other natural disasters. No public subscriptions are invited for this fund. Individuals willingly support this work of benevolence with no desire for recognition or reward. (Matthew 6:3) The church construction program is also financed by voluntary contributions of money, materials, and labour, with specialized teams of tradesmen devoting their personal time and resources on a volunteer basis to build or renovate Kingdom Halls (churches) for congregations in need.
Funding the Society’s Activities
Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Society do not carry on any commercial activities to raise funds or obtain support for any of their charitable activities. They rely solely on voluntary contributions which are, for the most part, made by members of the congregations. They believe that they ‘must love their neighbour as themselves’ and therefore have a moral and Scriptural obligation to help their fellowman.
Donations to the Society are not tax-deductible, even when they are made for disaster relief or church building. We believe that more funds would be available if donations of reasonably large amounts “for the advancement of religion” were tax-deductible.
The Purposes and Practice of Christian Religion and “Charity” Are Inseparable
Real charity is both the “purpose” and the “nature” of the activities carried out by a Christian religion if it follows the example of Christ set forth in the Bible. Perhaps the best known Scriptural principle related to charity is recorded at 1 Corinthians 13:13:
“And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.”—King James Version.
This statement was made by an apostle to the early Christian church. However, in modern times, the word “charity” has assumed a related, but more limited, meaning. The Collins English Dictionary, Fourth Australian Edition, defines “charity” as—
“1a the giving of help, money, food, etc., to those in need.… 5 love of one’s fellow men.… from Latin caritas affection, love …”
It is this first definition that is given emphasis today. So charity is usually associated with giving the “poor and needy” support in various forms such as money, food, clothing, or medical aid. It is in this limited sense, then, that “charity” can be separated from the Christian religion or can be isolated within the activities of a church. The fifth meaning given by Collins Dictionary is the meaning behind the Bible verse quoted above, for the word “charity” in that verse is translated from one of the Greek words for love, “agape.” [1] In fact, many modern translations render this Bible verse as follows:
“In a word, there are three things that last forever: faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of them all is love.” ¾ The New English Bible . [2]
The meaning of the word “agape” extends beyond the love shown to family, friends, or marriage mate. According to James Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible (1890, pp. 75, 76), agape—
“ ¼ is wider, embracing espec. the judgment and the deliberate assent of the will as a matter of principle, duty and propriety ¼ .”
Therefore, the “charity” of the Christian religion includes, but extends beyond, giving to the poor and needy by means of the provision of money, clothing, food, medical attention, and other material help. It encompasses a general compassion for other people, including a stranger and even an enemy. (Luke 6:27-29) This compassion prompts deliberate acts of goodwill on the part of a Christian toward another. It may, or may not, include assistance to the poor and needy by means of gifts of material possessions, but it is exercised for the good of the other person or a community of persons. It can include providing encouragement, advice, and counsel, giving hope, or showing kindness. For example, a depressed person is often better aided by words of encouragement than by a material gift, and a person in financial difficulties could be more lastingly assisted by guidance in managing their financial affairs than they would be by a temporary boost to their bank account. The person or organization who provides that guidance out of a sense of Christian love is no less a sharer in the chain of charitable actions than the one who freely gives a monetary gift.
It is impossible in these circumstances to divide charitable works from the true practice of religion. [3] An organization established for “the advancement of religion” is, in and of itself, giving both to the individual and to the community. If the church’s primary purpose is to uplift the morals of individuals comprising a community; if it teaches and promotes higher standards; if it assists couples to improve marital relationships; if it helps youths and others to have a purpose in life, to act responsibly, to pay their debts, to live morally, to avoid drugs, to resist smoking, to stop stealing, to avoid lying; and if it teaches people to be peaceable, then surely these charitable purposes and actions directed at preventing the problem rather than at the results of the problem are of great benefit to the community.
The charitable activities of Jehovah’s Witnesses in this regard have been recognized by various authorities in different parts of the world. For example, A.I. Antonov, head of the Department of Family Sociology at the Lomonosov Moscow State University, and three other scholars wrote in their expert opinion submitted to the Golovinsky court:
“The literature of the religious association of Jehovah’s Witnesses encourages its readers to strengthen family unity, highly value marriage, family, children, paternity and maternity, accept one’s mutual responsibility as parents, children, and all family members.”—Conclusion on the Results of a Research of Publications of Religious Association of Jehovah’s Witnesses, Institute of Religion and Law, Moscow, March 1998.
A survey of 126,966 people, conducted in Germany, found that 80 percent of those surveyed felt that their family life had improved because of applying the Bible-based teachings found in the publications of Jehovah’s Witnesses. [4] In addition, an independent survey conducted in France in 1998 found that “98 percent of Jehovah’s Witnesses consider that their faith has led them to a rather harmonious life and to the respect of laws.” [5]
Overseas Definitions of Charity
In harmony with what is set out in the Issues Paper concerning the definition of charity, Lord Macnaghten, in Commissioner for Special Purposes of Income Tax v Pemsel [1891] AC 531, identified the four classes of charity as: (1) the relief of poverty; (2) the advancement of education; (3) the advancement of religion; and (4) other purposes beneficial to the community. The use of the term “other” assumes that “education” and “religion” are beneficial to the community. In general terms, Lord Macnaghten’s four-class characterization of activities considered charitable has been adopted throughout the common law world.
As the Issues Paper also mentions, a charity must provide some public benefit. The publications of the British Charity Commission define “public benefit” as “for the benefit of the community (or a significant section of it).” At paragraph 30 of CC21 Starting and Registering a Charity, the commission states: “There is a general assumption that the advancement of religion is for the public benefit.” [6]
Section 501(c)(3) of the United States Internal RevenueCode,in addition to the relief of poverty and the advancement of religion, education, or science, includes in its definition of “charity” for tax-exempt status the erection or maintenance of public buildings, monuments, or works; lessening the burden of government; lessening of neighbourhood tensions; elimination of prejudice and discrimination; defence of human and civil rights secured by law; and combating community deterioration and juvenile delinquency.
Issues Regarding Definitions Used in Australia Compared to Other Countries
The Society is not an international organization having branches in other countries. However, Jehovah’s Witnesses are worldwide, and a different not-for-profit organization is registered in each country. The structures of these corporations vary according to the laws applying in each country. In some countries, such as the United States of America and New Zealand, donors to our religious organizations are exempt from gift duty and may claim tax deductions for donations made to the church.
In some countries, we are limited by the fact that funds received cannot be distributed to another country, thus preventing an international support arrangement. Although this has, at times, proven to be inconvenient, it has not unduly hampered our work.
Conclusion
It is our submission that the common law definition of charity should be retained in Australia just as it has been in most common law jurisdictions.

[1] See Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, unabridged, which gives the primary meaning of “charity” as “Christian love ¼ love of fellow men.”

[2] See also the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.

[3] Except where the benefit has no public element such as the establishment of a closed order whose members are not involved with the community.

[4] The Watchtower, July 1, 1998, p.4.

[5] Survey conducted by SOFRES, ref. MHI-MNV 98-204, October 1998, p.9.

[6] For additional information see web site: www.charity-commission.gov.uk/cc2l.htm
2
Charity ,what is the correct (biblical or christian) view?
by Koiné in
1. watchtower
2. bible
hallo again,.

we all apreciate the good work (charity) done by religous groups.. do you think jehovah's witnesses do enough in this matter?.

please read the comment from jehovah's witnesses in australia (2001) about their view on charity.. can you agree?
Koiné

Sorry forgot the article,


LLC February 5, 2001
Inquiry into the Definition of
Charities and Related Organisations
C/- The Treasury
Parkes Place
PARKES ACT 2600
Dear Sir/Madam:

Re: Submission to Inquiry into the Definition of Charities and Related Organisations

Please find enclosed three copies of a brief submission in response to the Inquiry into the Definition of Charities and Related Organisations by Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Australia.
We apologise for the lateness in providing you with this document which came about as a result of key members of our staff being overseas during most of January.
Thank you for providing us with the opportunity to make this submission.
Yours faithfully,
WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF AUSTRALIA

W. M. Lloyd
Vice-President
Encls.
Vincent Toole email: [email protected]
INQUIRY INTO THE DEFINITION OF CHARITIES AND RELATED ORGANISATIONS
A Submission by
the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Australia
on behalf of
Jehovah’s Witnesses in Australia
February, 2001
Table of Contents
Who Are Jehovah’s Witnesses? ........................................................................................ 4
The Public Ministry ....................................................................................................... 4
The Internal Ministry .................................................................................................... 4
Disaster Relief and Church Construction Program ....................................................... 5
Funding the Society’s Activities ................................................................................... 5
The Purposes and Practice of Christian Religion and “Charity” Are Inseparable ............ 5
Overseas Definitions of Charity ....................................................................................... 7
Issues Regarding Definitions Used in Australia Compared to Other Countries .............. 8
Conclusion ........................................................................................................................ 8

Who Are Jehovah’s Witnesses?
Jehovah’s Witnesses are individual Christians who worship Jehovah, the supreme God of the universe and the Creator of it. ¾ Isaiah 43:10, 12; Psalm 83:18.
The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Australia (the “Society”) is a not-for-profit religious organization registered under the New South Wales Companies Act 1961 as a company limited by guarantee. It is the legally registered body that acts on behalf of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Australia. The objects of the Society are set out in the attached Articles and Memorandum of Association.
The primary attributes of the Witnesses and the Society are religious, charitable, educational, and community service oriented. Their activities are based on a love for God and their fellowman and can be divided into two main areas, the public ministry and the internal ministry.
The Public Ministry
The public ministry includes home visitation in the community. The Society produces Bible-based printed material for distribution without charge. These publications include magazines, pamphlets, tracts, and books containing religious and moral discussion based on Bible principles which are designed to uplift mankind. They incorporate up-to-date medical, scientific, social, and educational information that addresses real-life problems. Bible studies are conducted on a regular basis with those in the community who desire to get to understand the Bible and how the principles it contains can assist them in various areas of life, such as within the family. In this way, comfort and hope is provided to many in the community who are suffering distress or pressure. Help is also given to those wanting assistance in areas involving Christian ethics, such as maintaining honest conduct, strengthening marriage bonds and rearing children. Other persons may desire help to stop smoking, abusing drugs, or engaging in physical violence or to improve their moral and, at times, physical cleanness.
The Internal Ministry
The internal ministry involves assistance, training, education, and teaching provided to members of the various congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses by the Society and those it appoints as ministers and elders. This ministry includes regular Bible study and training for the public ministry through educational meetings which form part of the Witnesses’ program of worship; a school for those associating with the congregation to improve their reading, comprehension, and public speaking abilities; and schools for ministers of the congregation and for missionaries. It includes a “shepherding” program to assist those in the congregation who are suffering in any way from illness, unemployment, family problems, or various day-to-day problems which are a part of modern society. In addition, the Society has established a hospital liaison network service to support those who want to avoid blood transfusions by providing the most up-to-date medical information published from around the world to medical practitioners who are willing to accept such assistance in treating Jehovah’s Witnesses. This service has also assisted hospitals in learning about and adopting new and safer treatments that avoid or minimize the well-recognized dangers associated with blood transfusion therapy. In doing so, it has aided the medical profession to be of greater assistance to the general community.
Disaster Relief and Church Construction Program
Supporting the public and internal ministries is the Disaster Relief Fund and the church construction program, both of which are administered by the Society. Contributions received for disaster relief are used in times of major crises including cyclones, floods, fires, earthquakes, and other natural disasters. No public subscriptions are invited for this fund. Individuals willingly support this work of benevolence with no desire for recognition or reward. (Matthew 6:3) The church construction program is also financed by voluntary contributions of money, materials, and labour, with specialized teams of tradesmen devoting their personal time and resources on a volunteer basis to build or renovate Kingdom Halls (churches) for congregations in need.
Funding the Society’s Activities
Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Society do not carry on any commercial activities to raise funds or obtain support for any of their charitable activities. They rely solely on voluntary contributions which are, for the most part, made by members of the congregations. They believe that they ‘must love their neighbour as themselves’ and therefore have a moral and Scriptural obligation to help their fellowman.
Donations to the Society are not tax-deductible, even when they are made for disaster relief or church building. We believe that more funds would be available if donations of reasonably large amounts “for the advancement of religion” were tax-deductible.
The Purposes and Practice of Christian Religion and “Charity” Are Inseparable
Real charity is both the “purpose” and the “nature” of the activities carried out by a Christian religion if it follows the example of Christ set forth in the Bible. Perhaps the best known Scriptural principle related to charity is recorded at 1 Corinthians 13:13:
“And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.”—King James Version.
This statement was made by an apostle to the early Christian church. However, in modern times, the word “charity” has assumed a related, but more limited, meaning. The Collins English Dictionary, Fourth Australian Edition, defines “charity” as—
“1a the giving of help, money, food, etc., to those in need.… 5 love of one’s fellow men.… from Latin caritas affection, love …”
It is this first definition that is given emphasis today. So charity is usually associated with giving the “poor and needy” support in various forms such as money, food, clothing, or medical aid. It is in this limited sense, then, that “charity” can be separated from the Christian religion or can be isolated within the activities of a church. The fifth meaning given by Collins Dictionary is the meaning behind the Bible verse quoted above, for the word “charity” in that verse is translated from one of the Greek words for love, “agape.” [1] In fact, many modern translations render this Bible verse as follows:
“In a word, there are three things that last forever: faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of them all is love.” ¾ The New English Bible . [2]
The meaning of the word “agape” extends beyond the love shown to family, friends, or marriage mate. According to James Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible (1890, pp. 75, 76), agape—
“ ¼ is wider, embracing espec. the judgment and the deliberate assent of the will as a matter of principle, duty and propriety ¼ .”
Therefore, the “charity” of the Christian religion includes, but extends beyond, giving to the poor and needy by means of the provision of money, clothing, food, medical attention, and other material help. It encompasses a general compassion for other people, including a stranger and even an enemy. (Luke 6:27-29) This compassion prompts deliberate acts of goodwill on the part of a Christian toward another. It may, or may not, include assistance to the poor and needy by means of gifts of material possessions, but it is exercised for the good of the other person or a community of persons. It can include providing encouragement, advice, and counsel, giving hope, or showing kindness. For example, a depressed person is often better aided by words of encouragement than by a material gift, and a person in financial difficulties could be more lastingly assisted by guidance in managing their financial affairs than they would be by a temporary boost to their bank account. The person or organization who provides that guidance out of a sense of Christian love is no less a sharer in the chain of charitable actions than the one who freely gives a monetary gift.
It is impossible in these circumstances to divide charitable works from the true practice of religion. [3] An organization established for “the advancement of religion” is, in and of itself, giving both to the individual and to the community. If the church’s primary purpose is to uplift the morals of individuals comprising a community; if it teaches and promotes higher standards; if it assists couples to improve marital relationships; if it helps youths and others to have a purpose in life, to act responsibly, to pay their debts, to live morally, to avoid drugs, to resist smoking, to stop stealing, to avoid lying; and if it teaches people to be peaceable, then surely these charitable purposes and actions directed at preventing the problem rather than at the results of the problem are of great benefit to the community.
The charitable activities of Jehovah’s Witnesses in this regard have been recognized by various authorities in different parts of the world. For example, A.I. Antonov, head of the Department of Family Sociology at the Lomonosov Moscow State University, and three other scholars wrote in their expert opinion submitted to the Golovinsky court:
“The literature of the religious association of Jehovah’s Witnesses encourages its readers to strengthen family unity, highly value marriage, family, children, paternity and maternity, accept one’s mutual responsibility as parents, children, and all family members.”—Conclusion on the Results of a Research of Publications of Religious Association of Jehovah’s Witnesses, Institute of Religion and Law, Moscow, March 1998.
A survey of 126,966 people, conducted in Germany, found that 80 percent of those surveyed felt that their family life had improved because of applying the Bible-based teachings found in the publications of Jehovah’s Witnesses. [4] In addition, an independent survey conducted in France in 1998 found that “98 percent of Jehovah’s Witnesses consider that their faith has led them to a rather harmonious life and to the respect of laws.” [5]
Overseas Definitions of Charity
In harmony with what is set out in the Issues Paper concerning the definition of charity, Lord Macnaghten, in Commissioner for Special Purposes of Income Tax v Pemsel [1891] AC 531, identified the four classes of charity as: (1) the relief of poverty; (2) the advancement of education; (3) the advancement of religion; and (4) other purposes beneficial to the community. The use of the term “other” assumes that “education” and “religion” are beneficial to the community. In general terms, Lord Macnaghten’s four-class characterization of activities considered charitable has been adopted throughout the common law world.
As the Issues Paper also mentions, a charity must provide some public benefit. The publications of the British Charity Commission define “public benefit” as “for the benefit of the community (or a significant section of it).” At paragraph 30 of CC21 Starting and Registering a Charity, the commission states: “There is a general assumption that the advancement of religion is for the public benefit.” [6]
Section 501(c)(3) of the United States Internal RevenueCode,in addition to the relief of poverty and the advancement of religion, education, or science, includes in its definition of “charity” for tax-exempt status the erection or maintenance of public buildings, monuments, or works; lessening the burden of government; lessening of neighbourhood tensions; elimination of prejudice and discrimination; defence of human and civil rights secured by law; and combating community deterioration and juvenile delinquency.
Issues Regarding Definitions Used in Australia Compared to Other Countries
The Society is not an international organization having branches in other countries. However, Jehovah’s Witnesses are worldwide, and a different not-for-profit organization is registered in each country. The structures of these corporations vary according to the laws applying in each country. In some countries, such as the United States of America and New Zealand, donors to our religious organizations are exempt from gift duty and may claim tax deductions for donations made to the church.
In some countries, we are limited by the fact that funds received cannot be distributed to another country, thus preventing an international support arrangement. Although this has, at times, proven to be inconvenient, it has not unduly hampered our work.
Conclusion
It is our submission that the common law definition of charity should be retained in Australia just as it has been in most common law jurisdictions.

[1] See Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, unabridged, which gives the primary meaning of “charity” as “Christian love ¼ love of fellow men.”

[2] See also the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.

[3] Except where the benefit has no public element such as the establishment of a closed order whose members are not involved with the community.

[4] The Watchtower, July 1, 1998, p.4.

[5] Survey conducted by SOFRES, ref. MHI-MNV 98-204, October 1998, p.9.

[6] For additional information see web site: www.charity-commission.gov.uk/cc2l.htm
2
Charity ,what is the correct (biblical or christian) view?
by Koiné in
1. watchtower
2. bible
hallo again,.

we all apreciate the good work (charity) done by religous groups.. do you think jehovah's witnesses do enough in this matter?.

please read the comment from jehovah's witnesses in australia (2001) about their view on charity.. can you agree?
Koiné

Hallo again,
We all apreciate the good work (charity) done by religous groups.
Do you think Jehovah's witnesses do enough in this matter?
Please read the comment from Jehovah's witnesses in Australia (2001) about their view on charity.
Can you agree? Do they have a point there?
Looking for your comments,
Sincereley yours
Koiné
3
What is the real growth?
by Koiné in
1. watchtower
2. bible
hallo everyone,.

has anyone an idea ,what the real growth precentage of the wo organisation is?

( from russel on and especially the last decennia).
Koiné

Hallo everyone,
Has anyone an idea ,what the real growth precentage of the WO organisation is? ( from Russel on and especially the last decennia)
How to chiffer or calculate the ratio of the baptisms,with the deceased,the born into the group,the disfellowshipped,the apostates,the non interested etc?
In short what is the real growth and how is this matching with the hours preached ,the literature distributed and the new kingdom halls build?
What do you think is the growth prognosis,are there formula's to calculate this?
Thanks a lot for your help anyway.
Greetings
26
Is Mr. Stafford,still (again) a Jehovah's witness or disfellowshipped?
by Koiné in
1. watchtower
2. bible
posted by greg staffordat 3:58 amsunday, november 30, 2008hello!

welcome to "watching the ministry.

" my name is greg stafford.
Koiné

Posted by Greg Stafford at 3:58 AM
Sunday, November 30, 2008
Hello! Welcome to "Watching the Ministry." My name is Greg Stafford. I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and a Christian Witness of Jah. Both are the same thing, really, in that both "Jehovah's Witnesses" and the "Christian Witnesses of Jah" from a biblical perspective have to do with those people who bear witness to the God Jah, apart from the traditions of men (compare Isaiah 29:13; Galatians 1:10). Of course, many who hear "Jehovah's Witnesses" think immediately of those who bear witness to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. That is not what makes one a Jehovah's Witness, and the Christian Witnesses of Jah reject any attempt to equate bearing witness to Jah with bearing witness to men.
Is Mr. Stafford disfellowshipped ,or are there double standards in the WO organisation,or is this a precedent to follow?
Greetings
24
Where would you go(are you gone)?
by Koiné in
1. watchtower
2. bible
hallo,.

i would like to discuss some items in one topic:.

1)most of the people who left jehovah's witnesses also left institutional christianity,i mean they did not join another group (or did they)?.
Koiné

Hallo,
I would like to discuss some items in one topic:
1)Most of the people who left Jehovah's Witnesses also left institutional christianity,I mean they did not join another group (or did they)?
What could be the reason therefore?
2)Reading the posts my feeling is that a lot of the forum members also have a lot of doubts in the bible itself. Some do not believe (any more) in creation,the fall,the flood , the Kingdom etc. or become openly biblecritics.
Is this because of their dissapointment with JW or are their other reasons?
Can you be a Christian without belief in the core bible doctrines?
3)When YOU (have) left JW which group would you prefer?
Greetings
18
God's kingdom:is it possible to define it ?
by Koiné in
1. watchtower
2. bible
since i am working on an essay about "gods kingdom or the kingdom of heaven" i would appreciate how people describe or define this expression,apart from the watchtower definition.. is it only another metaphor for god's eternal universal reign?.

do we have to see it in a pre-post- or amillenial setting?.

is it only something in the mind and heart,or will it like, daniel2:44 says, one time be the only government over (or on) the earth.. if it started his activities after jesus death and ressurrection in the 1st century what has been the influence since then?.
Koiné

Here a definition from Elwell's Theological Dictionary :
The kingdom of God is also the kingdom of Christ. Jesus speaks of the kingdom of the Son of man (Matt. 13:41; 16:28), "my kingdom" (Luke 22:30; John 18:36). See "His kingdom" (Luke 1:33; II Tim. 4:1); "thy kingdom" (Matt. 20:31; Luke 23:42; Heb. 1:8); "the kingdom of His beloved Son" (Col. 1:13); "His heavenly kingdom" (II Tim. 4:18); "the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" (II Pet. 1:11).
The Father has given the kingdom to Christ (Luke 22:29), and when the Son has accomplished His rule, He will restore the kingdom to the Father (I Cor. 15:24). Therefore it is "the kingdom of the world is to become "the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ" (Rev. 11:15). There is no tension between "the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ" (Rev. 12:10).

The Secular Use. Basileia is first the authority to rule as a king and secondly the realm over which the reign is exercised.

The Abstract Meaning. In Luke 19:12, 15 a nobleman went into a far country to receive a "kingdom," i.e., authority to rule. Rev. 17:12 speaks of ten kings who have not yet received a "kingdom"; they are to "receive authority as kings" for one hour. These kings give over their "kingdom," their authority, to the Beast (Rev. 17:17). The harlot is the great city which has "kingdom," dominion over the kings of the earth (Rev. 17:18).

The Concrete Meaning. The kingdom is also a realm over which a reign is exercised. The idea of a realm is found in Matt. 4:8=Luke 4:5; Matt. 24:7; Mark 6:23; Rev. 16:10.

The Kingdom Is God's Reign. The "kingdom of God" means primarily the rule of God, the divine kingly authority.

OT Usage. The Hebrew word malekut, like basileia, carries primarily the abstract rather than the concrete meaning. A king's reign is frequently dated by the phrase "in the...year of this malekut," i.e., of His reign (I Chr. 26:31; Dan. 1:1). The establishment of Solomon's malekut (I Kings 2:12) meant the securing of His reign. The reception of Saul's malekut by David (I Chr. 12:23) is the authority to reign as king. The abstract idea is evident when the word is placed in parallelism with such abstract concepts as power, might, glory, dominion (Dan. 2:37; 4:34; 7:14).

When malekut is used of God, it almost always refers to His authority or His rule as the heavenly King. See Pss. 22:28; 103:19; 145:11, 13; Obad. 21; Dan. 6:26.
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In the NT. The kingdom of God is the divine authority and rule given by the Father to the Son (Luke 22:29). Christ will exercise this rule until He has subdued all that is hostile to God. When He has put all enemies under His feet, He will return the kingdom, His messianic authority, to the Father (I Cor. 15:24-28).
The kingdom (not kingdoms) now exercised by men in opposition to God is to become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ (Rev. 11:15) and "He shall reign for ever and ever." In Rev. 12:10 the kingdom of God is parallel to the salvation and power of God and the authority of His Christ.

This abstract meaning is apparent in the Gospels. In Luke 1:33 the everlasting kingdom of Christ is synonymous with His rule. When Jesus said that His kingdom was not of this world (John 18:36), He did not refer to His realm; He meant that His rule was not derived from earthly authority but from God and that His kingship would not manifest itself like a human kingdom but in accordance with the divine purpose. The kingdom which men must receive with childlike simplicity (Mark 10:15; Matt. 19:14; Luke 18:17), which men must seek (Matt. 6:33; Luke 12:31), which Christ will give to the disciples (Luke 22:29), is the divine rule.

The Kingdom Is Soteriological. The object of the divine rule is the redemption of men and their deliverance from the powers of evil. I Cor. 15:23-28 is definitive. Christ's reign means the destruction of all hostile powers, the last of which is death. The kingdom of God is the reign of God in Christ destroying all that is hostile to the divine rule.

The NT sees a hostile kingdom standing over against God's kingdom. The "kingdom of the world" is opposed to God's kingdom (Rev. 11:15) and must be conquered. The kingdoms of the world are under satanic control (Matt. 4:8; Luke 4:5). Matt. 12:26 and Luke 11:18 speak of the kingdom of Satan, whose power over men is shown in demon possession. This world or age opposes the working of God's kingdom; the cares of the age will choke the word of the kingdom (Matt. 13:22).
This opposition between the two kingdoms, of God and of Satan, is summarized in II Cor. 4:4. Satan is called the god of this age and is seen to exercise His rule by holding men in darkness. This statement must be understood in light of the fact that God remains the King of the ages (I Tim. 1:17; Rev. 15:3).

The kingdom of God is the redemptive rule of God in Christ defeating Satan and the powers of evil and delivering men from the sway of evil. It brings to men "righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" (Rom. 14:17). Entrance into the kingdom of Christ means deliverance from the power of darkness (Col. 1:13) and is accomplished by the new birth (John 3:3, 5).

The Kingdom Is Dynamic. The kingdom is not an abstract principle; the kingdom comes. It is God's rule actively invading the kingdom of Satan. The coming of the kingdom, as John the Baptist preached it, would mean a mighty divine act: a baptism of judgment and fire (Matt. 3:11-12). God was about to manifest His sovereign rule in the Coming One in salvation and judgment.

The Kingdom Comes at the End of the Age. John looked for a single, though complex, event of salvation-judgment. Jesus separated the present and the future visitations of the kingdom. There is a future eschatological coming of the kingdom at the end of the age. Jesus taught the prayer, "Thy kingdom come" (Matt. 6:10). When the Son of man comes in His glory, He will sit on the throne of judgment. The wicked will suffer the condemnation of fire; the righteous will "inherit the kingdom" (Matt. 25:31-46). The same separation at the end of the age is pictured in Matt. 13:36-43. This eschatological coming of the kingdom will mean the palingenesia (Matt. 19:28), the rebirth of transformation of the material order.

The Kingdom Has Come into History. Jesus taught that the kingdom, which will come in glory at the end of the age, has come into history in His own person and mission. The redemptive rule of God has now invaded the realm of Satan to deliver men from the power of evil. In the exorcism of demons Jesus asserted the presence and power of the kingdom (Matt. 12:28). While the destruction of Satan awaits the coming of the Son of man in glory (Matt. 25:41; Rev. 20:10), Jesus has already defeated Satan. The strong man (Satan) is bound by the stronger man (Christ) and men may now experience a new release from evil (Matt. 12:29). The mission of the disciples in the name and power of Christ casting out demons meant the overthrow of Satan's power (Luke 10:18). Thus Jesus could say that the kingdom of God was present in the midst of men (Luke 17:21). In the messianic works of Christ fulfilling Isa. 35:5-6, the kingdom manifested its power (Matt. 11:12. Biazetai is best interpreted as a middle form).

The Kingdom Is Supernatural. As the dynamic activity of God's rule the kingdom is supernatural. It is God's deed. Only the supernatural act of God can destroy Satan, defeat death (I Cor. 15:26), raise the dead in incorruptible bodies to inherit the blessings of the kingdom (I Cor. 15:50ff.), and transform the world order (Matt. 19:28). The same supernatural rule of God has invaded the kingdom of Satan to deliver men from bondage to satanic darkness. (Editor's Note: Elwell's meaning here is that God has delivered men OUT OF *bondage to satanic darkness* UNTO *liberty in the light of Jesus.*)
The parable of the seed growing by itself sets forth this truth (Mark 4:26-29). The ground brings forth fruit of itself. Men may sow the seed by preaching the kingdom (Matt. 10:7; Luke 10:9; Acts 8:12; 28:23, 31); they can persuade men concerning the kingdom (Acts 19:8), but they cannot build it. It is God's deed. Men can receive the kingdom (Mark 10:15; Luke 18:17), but they are never said to establish it. Men can reject the kingdom and refuse to receive it or enter it (Matt. 23:13), but they cannot destroy it. They can look for it (Luke 23:51), pray for its coming (Matt. 6:10), and seek it (Matt. 6:33), but they cannot bring it.
The kingdom is altogether God's deed although it works in and through men. Men may do things for the sake of the kingdom (Matt. 19:12; Luke 18:29), work for it (Col. 4:11), suffer for it (II Thess. 1:5), but they are not said to act upon the kingdom itself. They can inherit it (Matt. 25:34; I Cor. 6:9-10, 15:50), but they cannot bestow it upon others.

The Mystery of the Kingdom. The presence of the kingdom in history is a mystery (Mark 4:11). A mystery is a divine purpose hidden for long ages but finally revealed (Rom. 16:25-26). The OT revelation looks forward to a single manifestation of God's kingdom when the glory of God would fill the earth. Dan. 2 sees four human kingdoms, then the kingdom of God.

The mystery of the kingdom is this: Before this eschatological consummation, before the destruction of Satan, before the age to come, the kingdom of God has entered this age and invaded the kingdom of Satan in spiritual power to bring to men in advance the blessings of forgiveness (Mark 2:5), life (John 3:3), and righteousness (Matt. 5:20; Rom. 14:16) which belong to the age to come. The righteousness of the kingdom is an inner, absolute righteousness (Matt. 5:22, 48) which can be realized only as God gives it to men.

The parables of Matt. 13 embody this new revelation. A parable is a story drawn from daily experience illustrating a single, fundamental truth; the details are not to be pressed as in allegory. The kingdom has come among men but not with power which compels every knee to bow before its glory; it is rather like seed cast on the ground which may be fruitful or unfruitful depending on its reception (Matt. 13:3-8).
The kingdom has come, but the present order is not disrupted; the sons of the kingdom and the sons of the evil one grow together in the world until the harvest (Matt. 13:24-30, 36-43). The kingdom of God has indeed come to men, not as a new glorious order, but like the proverbial mustard seed. However, its insignificance must not be despised. This same kingdom will one day be a great tree (Matt. 13:31-32).
Instead of a world-transforming power, the kingdom is present in an almost imperceptible form like a bit of leaven hidden in a bowl of dough. However, this same kingdom will yet fill the earth as the leavened dough fills the bowl (Matt. 13:33). In neither of these two parables is the idea of slow growth or gradual permeation important, for our Lord nowhere else used either idea. In Scripture natural growth can illustrate the supernatural (I Cor. 15:36-37).

The coming of the kingdom of God in humility instead of glory was an utterly new and amazing revelation. Yet, said Jesus, men should not be deceived. Although the present manifestation of the kingdom is in humility, indeed, its Bearer was put to death as a condemned criminal, it is nevertheless the kingdom of God, and, like buried treasure or a priceless pearl, its acquisition merits any cost or sacrifice (Matt. 13:44-46). The fact that the present activity of the kingdom in the world will initiate a movement that will include evil men as well as good should not lead to misunderstanding of its true nature. It is the kingdom of God; it will one day divide the good from the evil in eschatological salvation and judgment (Matt. 13:47-50).

The Kingdom as the Realms of Redemptive Blessing. A reign must have a realm in which its authority is exercised. Thus the redemptive rule of God creates realms in which the blessings of the divine reign are enjoyed. There is both a future and a present realm of the kingdom.

The Future Realm. God calls men to enter His own kingdom and glory (I Thess. 2:12). In this age the sons of the kingdom will experience suffering (II Thess. 1:5) and tribulations (Acts 14:22), but God will rescue them from every evil and save them for His heavenly kingdom (II Tim. 4:18). Men should be careful to assure entrance into the kingdom of Jesus Christ (II Pet. 1:11). The Epistles frequently speak of the kingdom as a future inheritance (I Cor. 6:9-10; 15:50; Gal. 5:21; Eph. 5:5).

In the Gospels the eschatological salvation is described as entrance into the kingdom of God (Mark 9:47; 10:24), into the age to come (Mark 10:30), and into eternal life (Mark 9:45; 10:17, 30; Matt. 25:46). These three idioms are interchangeable. The consummation of the kingdom requires the coming of the Son of man in glory. Satan will be destroyed (Matt 25:41), the dead in Christ raised in incorruptible bodies (I Cor 15: 42-50) which are no longer capable of death (Luke 20:35-36) to inherit the kingdom of God (I Cor 15:50; Matt. 25:34). Before His death Jesus promised His disciples renewed fellowship in the new order (Matt. 26:29) when they would share both His fellowship and His authority to rule (Luke 22:29-30).

The stages of this consummation is a debated question. The Gospels picture only a single redemptive event at the return of Christ with resurrection (Luke 20:34-36) and judgment (Matt. 25:31-46). Revelation pictures a more detailed consummation. At the return of Christ (Rev. 19), Satan is bound and shut up in a bottomless pit, the first resurrection occurs, and the resurrected saints share Christ's rule for a thousand years (Rev. 20:1-5). In this millennial reign of Christ and His saints is found the fulfillment of such sayings as Rev. 5:10; I Cor. 6:2; Matt. 19:28; Luke 22:30. Only at the end of the millennium is Satan cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:10) and death finally destroyed (Rev. 20:14).

One interpretation understands this language realistically and looks for two future stages in the accomplishment of God's purpose, one at the beginning and one at the end of the millennium. This view is called premillennialism because it expects a millennial reign of Christ after His second coming. It explains the Gospel expectation in terms of progressive revelation. Dan. 2 does not foresee the church age; the Gospels do not foresee the millennial age; only Revelation gives the full outline of the consummation.

Others insist that there is only one stage of consummation and that the coming of Christ will inaugurate the age to come. The binding of Satan is the same as that in Matt. 12:29; the "first resurrection is not bodily but spiritual (John 5:25; Rom. 6:5); and the reign of Christ and His saints is a present spiritual reality (Rev. 3:21; Heb. 1:3; Eph. 2:5-6). This interpretation is called amillennial because it does not expect a millennial reign after Christ's return. The thousand years is a symbolic number for the entire period of Christ's present reign through the church.

It is often overlooked that in both of these interpretations the final goal is the same, the consummation of God's kingdom in the age to come. The debate is about the steps by which God will accomplish His redemptive purpose and not about the character of God's redemptive purpose.

A Present Realm. Because the dynamic power of God's reign has invaded this evil age it has created a present spiritual realm in which the blessings of God's reign are experienced. The redeemed have already been delivered from the power of darkness and brought into the kingdom of Christ (Col. 1:13). Jesus said that since the days of John the Baptist the kingdom of God has been preached and men enter it with violent determination (Luke 16:16). The one who is least in the new order of the kingdom is called greater than the greatest of the preceding order (Matt. 11:11) because He enjoys kingdom blessings which John never knew. Other sayings about entering a present realm of blessing are found in Matt. 21:31; 23:13.

The present and future aspects of the kingdom are inseparably tied together in Mark 10:15. The kingdom has come among men and its blessings have been extended in the person of Jesus. Those who now receive this offer of the kingdom with complete childlike trust will enter into the future eschatological kingdom of life.

The kingdom is NOT the church. The apostles went about preaching the kingdom of God (Acts 8:12; 19:8; 28:23); it is impossible to substitute "church" for "kingdom" in such passages. However, there is an inseparable relationship. The church is the fellowship of men who have accepted His offer of the kingdom, submitted to its rule, and entered into its blessings. The kingdom was offered to Israel (Matt. 10:5-6), who because of their previous convenantal relationship to God were "sons of the kingdom" (Matt. 8:12), its natural heirs. However, the offer of the kingdom in Christ was made on an individual basis in terms of personal acceptance (Mark 3:31-35; Matt. 10:35-35) rather than in terms of the family or nation. Because Israel rejected the kingdom, it was taken away and given to a different people (Matt. 21:43), the church.

Thus we may say that the kingdom of God creates the church. The redemptive rule of God brings into being a new people who receive the blessings of the divine reign. Furthermore it was the activity of the divine rule which brought judgment upon Israel. Individually the kingdom means either salvation or judgment (Matt. 3:11); historically the activity of the kingdom of God effected the creation of the church and the destruction of Israel (Matt. 23:37-38). This is probably the meaning of Mark 9:1. Within the lifetime of the disciples the kingdom of God would be seen manifesting its power in bringing a historical judgment upon Jerusalem and in creating the new people, the church. Paul announced the rejection of Israel and the salvation of the Gentiles (I Thess. 2:16; Acts 28:26-28). However, the rejection of Israel is not permanent. After God has visited the Gentiles, He will regraft Israel into the people of God, and "so all Israel will be saved" (Rom. 11:24-26), receive the kingdom of God, and enter into its blessings (see Matt. 23:39; Acts 3:19-20).

The kingdom also works through the church. The disciples preached the kingdom of God and performed signs of the kingdom (Matt. 10:7-8; Luke 10:9, 17). The powers of the kingdom were operative in and through them. Jesus said that He would give to the church the keys of the kingdom of heaven with power to bind and loose (Matt. 16:18-19). The meaning of the keys is illustrated in Luke 11:52. The scribes had taken away the key of knowledge, i.e., the correct interpretation of the OT. The key of understanding the divine purpose had been entrusted to Israel; but the scribes had so misinterpreted the oracles of God delivered to them (Rom. 3:2) that when Messiah came with a new revelation of God's kingdom, they neither entered themselves nor allowed others to enter. These keys, along with the kingdom blessings, are to be given to the new people who, as they preach the good news of the kingdom, will be the means of binding or loosing men from their sins. In fact, the disciples had already used these keys and exercised this authority, bringing men the gift of peace or pronouncing the divine judgment (Matt. 10:13-15).
The kingdom is God's deed. It has come into the world in Christ; it works in the world through the church. When the church has proclaimed the gospel of the kingdom in all the world as witness to all nations, Christ will return (Matt. 24:14) and bring the kingdom in glory.
48
Redemption, Reductions
by Narkissos in
1. watchtower
2. bible
as i have told before, one turning point in my exit from the wt was a conversation with a close friend about the "ransom".. we were in the (french) bethel library, i don't remember what we were talking about until she said to me: "you know, i never understood why jesus had to die for us.

" this surprised me so much that the only reply i could offer consisted in reciting the wt theology which she, of course, knew as well as i did.

and as she kept smiling at that i began to understand what she meant by "i never understood".. this was the first in a series of conversations which led us very far from wt theology and started me reading the nt again from a completely different perspective.. this basic question ("why jesus had to die") is central to christianity and, when you actually read the texts, already produces dozens of (slightly to wildly) different "answers" in the nt itself, not to mention later theology.. however popular religion does not work with multiple or complex answers but with unique and simple ones -- the variety of which constitutes the complexity as they add to and combine with each other in "history," i.e.
Koiné

Narkissos,
Is this not in contradiction with Jesus command to go ,teach and baptise?
My son is 23 and I hope he is going to be baptised as a Christian.
But to be baptised you have to be member of a community or church(with their theological system again).
Here in Belgium there is only choice between JW,Christadelfian,and evangelistic (all with their system of beliefs)
Btw have you been rebaptised after your JW episode? or is this a valid baptism according to you?
To be (re)baptised or not,that is the question.
Greetings
18
God's kingdom:is it possible to define it ?
by Koiné in
1. watchtower
2. bible
since i am working on an essay about "gods kingdom or the kingdom of heaven" i would appreciate how people describe or define this expression,apart from the watchtower definition.. is it only another metaphor for god's eternal universal reign?.

do we have to see it in a pre-post- or amillenial setting?.

is it only something in the mind and heart,or will it like, daniel2:44 says, one time be the only government over (or on) the earth.. if it started his activities after jesus death and ressurrection in the 1st century what has been the influence since then?.
Koiné

Since I am working on an essay about "Gods kingdom or the kingdom of heaven" I would appreciate how people describe or define this expression,apart from the watchtower definition.
Is it only another metaphor for God's eternal universal reign?
Do we have to see it in a pre-post- or amillenial setting?
Is it only something in the mind and heart,or will it like, Daniel2:44 says, one time be the only government over (or on) the earth.
If it started his activities after Jesus death and ressurrection in the 1st century what has been the influence since then?
Has it any influence on us now ? so that we have obligations due to our "citizenship" as christians?
Thanks for your reactions.
48
Redemption, Reductions
by Narkissos in
1. watchtower
2. bible
as i have told before, one turning point in my exit from the wt was a conversation with a close friend about the "ransom".. we were in the (french) bethel library, i don't remember what we were talking about until she said to me: "you know, i never understood why jesus had to die for us.

" this surprised me so much that the only reply i could offer consisted in reciting the wt theology which she, of course, knew as well as i did.

and as she kept smiling at that i began to understand what she meant by "i never understood".. this was the first in a series of conversations which led us very far from wt theology and started me reading the nt again from a completely different perspective.. this basic question ("why jesus had to die") is central to christianity and, when you actually read the texts, already produces dozens of (slightly to wildly) different "answers" in the nt itself, not to mention later theology.. however popular religion does not work with multiple or complex answers but with unique and simple ones -- the variety of which constitutes the complexity as they add to and combine with each other in "history," i.e.
Koiné

Hallo Narkissos,
For most of the time (and I am following your posts already for years) I can agree with you.
Question is,let us suppose you have children,or you are leading a bible study group,what is the basic teaching you are giving them,and when are they well or enough prepared to handle the questions with no (or too much answers).
And please,start another tread about faith its defenitions and implications.
Greetings from Belgium

Koiné

Posts by Koiné

Who Are Jehovah’s Witnesses?

The Public Ministry

The Internal Ministry

Disaster Relief and Church Construction Program

Funding the Society’s Activities

The Purposes and Practice of Christian Religion and “Charity” Are Inseparable

Overseas Definitions of Charity

Issues Regarding Definitions Used in Australia Compared to Other Countries

Conclusion

Who Are Jehovah’s Witnesses?

The Public Ministry

The Internal Ministry

Disaster Relief and Church Construction Program

Funding the Society’s Activities

The Purposes and Practice of Christian Religion and “Charity” Are Inseparable

Overseas Definitions of Charity

Issues Regarding Definitions Used in Australia Compared to Other Countries

Conclusion

Sunday, November 30, 2008