On another thread, Shadow asked PIMOJW, a newbie still serving in a congregation, "How about the overlapping generation? Do you know anyone who actually believes that?"
Answer was "no i dont! i think everyone doubts that nonsense!"
So that gets me really thinking about that.
My mother tried to tell me that when it was new and I think she confused herself and was only hanging on to it as a last-ditch effort to cling to her much older belief that the end should have come in 1975, but delays because "we don't know when Eve was created." (A long doctrinal explanation- basically saying that Eve is not 6000 years old yet.)
So their big recruitment tools in most of our lifetime has been the 1914 generation seeing the end, then specifically 1975, then the 20th century. After that, we all have a good idea how they got lost in what "generation" means in some secret code beyond what the Bible said.
So I know that my mother doesn't sit well with "overlapping generation." My thought for you on this thread is as the title says. Do you think many (or most even) that try to follow doctrine reject the current teachings from Watchtower? Does saying they are not inspired hurt them even more.
I will grant that most JW's don't keep up with the chariot of doctrine, but some still try.
OnTheWayOut
JoinedPosts by OnTheWayOut
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Do A Majority of Those That Bother With Doctrine Reject the Current Teachings?
by OnTheWayOut inon another thread, shadow asked pimojw, a newbie still serving in a congregation, "how about the overlapping generation?
do you know anyone who actually believes that?
"answer was "no i dont!
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OnTheWayOut
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Make Your Excellent Point to a JW, But- Remember, it's a Mind Control Cult.
by OnTheWayOut inso i am reading from many that they have an excellent thought-stopper for jw's.
(remember reasoning from the scriptures used "thought-stoppers?
)"if you just show them [this scripture or use this logic or expose this problem with the organization], you will shut them down.".
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OnTheWayOut
Ding, end of page 1:
I mean, I don't "like" that it is done, but it pretty much always gives them an answer when they don't have one.
Those are their almighty fallback answers that allow their members to turn off their brain. If you are pushed into a corner, you admit you don't know all the answers and fall back on "The light gets brighter as the day draws near."
Similarly, "Wait on Jehovah" suffices for many. I like the comment, "...training them to think in soundbites."I think that contributes to people's tendency to want to counter WT indoctrination with catchy zingers of their own.
Yes, we have zingers about the light switch flickering or the chariot going backwards and plenty more that I am not thinking about right now. They are great for us, but won't really help to shout out in a debate with a JW.Page 2:
Flipper, perhaps it will sink in one day. Keep trying.
Bungi Bill, if appeals to the emotion don't work, you are still known for giving it such a great try. -
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Make Your Excellent Point to a JW, But- Remember, it's a Mind Control Cult.
by OnTheWayOut inso i am reading from many that they have an excellent thought-stopper for jw's.
(remember reasoning from the scriptures used "thought-stoppers?
)"if you just show them [this scripture or use this logic or expose this problem with the organization], you will shut them down.".
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OnTheWayOut
sparrowdown, thanks for sharing that story. That person has come so close to a point of finding solutions, but just won't take the leap that something might be wrong with "the truth."
Xanthippe, you said "...individuals usually know how far they can go with a religious discussion so if you think it's worth a try go ahead I would say."
YES, by all means say what you can. I am not saying such talk is "useless." I just don't want to give a pass to those sure that they can defeat JW's with logic and doctrine discussions.
More on that with my comment to Punk:
punkofnice said: "I'd call it realistic. Standard jobo responses are varied but seem to hinge around - circular reasoning, wait on Jehovah(tm) or 'are you an apostate(tm)?'"
Great comment. I don't attack the doctrine very much with my JW wife or mother, mainly because I don't want to lose them to that question, "Are you an apostate?"
I would rather slowly win them over, and if that fails, maintain good relations. Good relations tends to lead them toward realizing that I am not evil, not mentally diseased, and perhaps they could examine THEIR doubts as the organization continues to take their money and deny truths and change the Doomsday calendar. -
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Saying hello for first time
by pimojw ini have been sneakily looking at this forum, almost every day, ever since it began!
it has taken me till now to actually register and contribute.
(actually i did register with a different name in the beginning but never commented).. i am a pimo elder with a fairly long history of senior "positions" in the organization.
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OnTheWayOut
Welcome to the posting side of this forum. For any readers who didn't get it, PIMOJW means
"Physically-In, Mentally-Out" JW.I was (extremely shortly) where you are, but couldn't stay there. For my own reasons, I had to get away from it.
I won't lecture you on what you should do, everyone has their own path to follow, but please don't quickly dismiss the idea of stepping away from the elder assignment. It doesn't have to disrupt your JW family if you did it for health, financial, or just personal reasons that cannot be fully shared with family. Okay, done with that non-lecture.
I hear ya about creating a new email and being careful about getting caught involved in anti-JW stuff on the internet. As a faded JW, I still maintain many separate things. I am just less and less worried about it as time goes on.
As for the ideas you suggest here on page 3:"...another positive of still being in and an elder is that i can hopefully help with the terrible situation surrounding child abuse. many elders HATE the direction they are getting. they either go along with it , or kick up a fuss in a way that gets them removed and dfd. I know the system, i know how to deal with co's, the branch, and even WHQ. at the very least im on hand if anything happens locally.
a number of elders speak openly about their disagreement on issues to do with child abuse, money (being taken from congs, and the begging), treatment of sfts's who were "reassigned to pioneer service" (booted out), khs being sold etc. there is a LOT of dissatisfaction out there, but not a lot of will to deal with it. "Edited to add: I had comments here and they disappeared.
I wanted to say, you surely could be a big help to an individual in the congregation facing problems about abuse. You could help them to get the proper help.
But I wonder on the rest- did you actually stop WTBTS from getting your congregation funds? Did you prevent the selling off of a KH? I hope I am wrong, but I don't feel that one elder, well-intentioned and knowing their system, can make the tiniest difference to decisions made at a much higher level. I am glad you want to buck the system and stand up for some things. But I will say that you will probably be removed as an elder somehow if you have any success. If they cannot come up with charges, they would simply close and sell your KH and tell every other congregation that you are not recommended to be re-appointed. And I would be proud to be kicked out of the boys' club for such a reason. -
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Make Your Excellent Point to a JW, But- Remember, it's a Mind Control Cult.
by OnTheWayOut inso i am reading from many that they have an excellent thought-stopper for jw's.
(remember reasoning from the scriptures used "thought-stoppers?
)"if you just show them [this scripture or use this logic or expose this problem with the organization], you will shut them down.".
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OnTheWayOut
A poster on FB said something to the effect that they shut down JW's and they were not able to answer at all.
When I heard what the FB poster said, I had a JW answer in mind instantly. It doesn't even have to make sense to you, it just has to seem to be right to them so they can say "That was not a GOTCHA question."
It was something like this shortened version below, but to be fair to the FB poster, it was much longer and more detailed. Still, it boiled down to FB poster thinking the JW's cannot answer this.:
FB- So I asked them what good killing all the evil sinners will do, because it was already done at the flood and evil came back."They had no answer."
I immediately knew the JW answer.
JW- The flood had to prepare the way for Jesus. The world was too evil, not ready to receive the son.
The difference between that destruction at the flood and the next one is that inherited sin still existed in humans, but after the destruction at Armageddon, the ransom can be applied to eliminate inherited sin and evil will be eliminated for good.
Oh, there's plenty of problems with that over-simple answer, but that just doesn't matter to a JW. They know the answer to say. Maybe some are not sharp enough to come up with that right away, but they can leave a conversation and go find that answer.
jp1692, "Never discuss doctrine" is a good idea. jwfacts has nice summaries of changed doctrines.
days of future passed, I read you. I recently discussed Joel Osteen in the Houston area not opening his building to hurricane victims and I piled it on with Joel's excuses. My wife fully agreed that wasn't right for Joel to do what he did. I then switched to JW's and their Assembly Hall near there, stating that I haven't read of Watchtower opening up to anyone, even members to come there and receive aid and a place to sleep. I even got to say how, at Sept. 11th, Brooklyn Bethel made sure to close their doors as a wave of people needed a place of safety as the cloud of rubble drove them that way. -
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Do any of the current Governing Body have academic qualifications?
by usualusername1 indo any of the current governing body have academic qualifications?.
thanks.
paul.
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OnTheWayOut
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!
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If we could ask the Disciplines today this one question.
by pleaseresearch inimagine if we had an opportunity today to ask any of the faithful disciples this question.. who resurrected jesus?.
what would their response be... if they still remembered what jesus said in john 2:19-22.
19 jesus replied to them: “tear down this temple, and in three days i will raise it up.”+ 20 the jews then said: “this temple was built in 46 years, and will you raise it up in three days?” 21 but he was talking about the temple of his body.+ 22 when, though, he was raised up from the dead, his disciples recalled that he used to say this,+ and they believed the scripture and what jesus had spoken.. .
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OnTheWayOut
You suppose too much when you suppose these men actually existed and it all happened as was written in what I am sure are 4 fictions chosen out of several.
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What is sin?
by sinboi inwhat do you consider sinful?
okay, i know many of you no longer believe that there is a god.
just bear with me a little, just assumed that there is a creator or god.
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OnTheWayOut
Sin is an invention of religion, designed to make people feel guilty toward God for violating some man-made rules supposedly from said God. Religion then provides a way for people to feel less guilty by donating their lives, or at least their money, to the religion.
I cannot pretend and answer within your hypothetical situation.
There are laws and morals outside of religion. You may break the law. You may act immorally. But to sin, you need religion. -
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How Many Here EVER Considered Going Back To Meetings?
by minimus inonce i left ,i was done.
in over 10 years i didn't return except for my mother's funeral.
did you ever re enter the kh after you left?.
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OnTheWayOut
I left after the Memorial of 2007, but I have been back a few times. I went to the Memorial one year later, but that was on a tropical island and due to specific circumstances. I went to one wedding and two funeral talks, the latter being my father-in-law last year.
It's tough, being married to an active JW, to just say NO to entering a Kingdom Hall. It sort of feels like giving power to tWatchtower the same way some members say that used furniture from a garage sale is possessed by demons. The way to prove this is nonsense is to keep your garage sale chair. Well, to prove it has no power over me, I will attend an occasional event like a funeral talk. I doubt I will be going to any JW weddings anymore. -
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Make Your Excellent Point to a JW, But- Remember, it's a Mind Control Cult.
by OnTheWayOut inso i am reading from many that they have an excellent thought-stopper for jw's.
(remember reasoning from the scriptures used "thought-stoppers?
)"if you just show them [this scripture or use this logic or expose this problem with the organization], you will shut them down.".
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OnTheWayOut
So I am reading from many that they have an excellent thought-stopper for JW's.
(Remember REASONING FROM THE SCRIPTURES used "thought-stoppers?)
"If you just show them [this scripture or use this logic or expose this problem with the organization], you will shut them down."I say this because many think this will win them brownie points, either with the strangers at the literature cart or with their family members.
Use your point if you can. It could help. I was freed from Watchtower because of a revealing that it was not really "the truth."
But don't be over-excited that your excellent point will work. Most of the things we come up with are either over a JW's head or beyond their boxed-in thinking. And when it is something they can compute (or can reach their strong sense of right-and-wrong), Watchtower has taught them to automatically reject it.I read often, that "They have no answer for [this]." And yet, when I read it, I know the standard JW answer. Even if a current JW doesn't know how to answer, they first reject the thought and then either dismiss it or go find the standard JW answer.
I don't mean to be so negative. Points CAN work sometimes to start a JW down the path of discovering the truth about The Truth. I just know that I have commented a few times recently to those that are so sure of their doctrinal flaws that they think virtually any JW will be disturbed by it.
I would say what works for me, but my loved ones are still JW. I will say that I tend to follow the Steve Hassan recommendations to be genuine and be "there" for these people. Send a card and/or photos, give a call if they let you. Just let them know you are ready to have a proper relationship. Good day.