Zico

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Posts by Zico

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  36

  common objections to celebrating Christmas

  by lovelylil in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i wanted to post this research i did that helped convince my husband a few years back that it was o.k.

  to celebrate christmas, despite the objections he was taught by the watchtower.

  hopefully this will help others out there ease their conscience about this particular day.

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  Zico

  Thanks for that Lil, another good scripture, imo:
  
  Ecclesiastes 1:9 What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.
  
  There's been a lot of 'pagans' around, it shouldn't be a surprise that Christians have repeated things other religions have done, few things will ever be original or unique.
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  41

  Here's the reason for the 3% jump in publishers for the past year

  by sir82 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it is immigration that explains the vast majority of the increase.. who is it that immigrates?

  the poorest of the poor, the desperate ones that would be dead from starvation or execution by gangs/guerillas within 5 years anyway.

  these were not the ones being converted in their home countries - when you have to work 14-18 hours a day, 7 days a week just to feed your family, there is no time to "study", attend meetings, go out in field servce, etc.. so, they go to their new country.

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  Zico

  Japan doesn't have the Christian immigrants to rely on for growth. Foreigners in Japan tend to come from countries like China, Korea and Thailand. Mostly atheist/buddhist countries. In the UK the biggest growth is with the Polish, Poland is mostly a Catholic country.
  
  I think the biggest reason for lack of growth is the Jehovah's Witnesses themselves. Most lack the enthusiasm to really go for studies and spend the time 'helping' someone all the way to Baptism. The book 'What does the bible really teach?' combined with a focus on gaining bible studies at meetings has given a few Jehovah's Witnesses more enthusiasm, and they seem to feel more comfortable studying with such a simple book, which I think is the reason for more baptisms, the book's been out 2 years, so it's effects have only started to show in the last year. If the Society want more converts they need to get the members more focused on preaching and studying again, but that will be difficult as most have done it for decades and become apathetic.
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  111

  New Yearbook stats for 2007 now out!

  by Dogpatch in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the report is out!.

  http://www.watchtowernews.org/2007report.pdf.

  cooking the books with 3% increase??.

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  Zico

  I expected a big increase compared to recent years. The book 'What does the bible really teach?' was released in 2005, and is starting to have it's desired effect. It's simple, so it's easy for studies to understand, but most of all, it's easy for the Witnesses to understand, and so it's easy to study with. The Jehovah's Witnesses love it, and it's given more of them the motivation to pursue studies, which is, imo, the reason for the increase.
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  208

  Self Deceit and Faith.

  by hillary_step in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this thread is inspired by a comment made on another thread, but i thought it would make an interesting discussion.. self deceit is described as a "misconception that is favorable to the person who holds it".

  my premise is that faith is a form of self-deceit - lying to oneself.. so, i would ask of the "faithful" the following questions and would request that they be read carefully to ensure no that there is no misunderstanding of purpose.. 1) in what way is faith not self-deception?.

  2) is a person who has faith in a god that you do not believe in, say for example siva, practicing a form of self-deception?.

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  Zico

  Hillary,
  
  I get what you're saying, and I mostly agree with you. I don't tend to be too assertive about beliefs, because it's all a bit like 'a striving after the wind' and they don't affect my day to day life, as most of them are irrelevant to my life, it can be amusing (and bemusing) to see people argue so vehemently for certain beliefs that make no difference to someone's life.
  
  I don't think I have anything else to add, at least not at the moment. I'll continue watching this thread with interest though.
  
  Regards,
  Zico
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  208

  Self Deceit and Faith.

  by hillary_step in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this thread is inspired by a comment made on another thread, but i thought it would make an interesting discussion.. self deceit is described as a "misconception that is favorable to the person who holds it".

  my premise is that faith is a form of self-deceit - lying to oneself.. so, i would ask of the "faithful" the following questions and would request that they be read carefully to ensure no that there is no misunderstanding of purpose.. 1) in what way is faith not self-deception?.

  2) is a person who has faith in a god that you do not believe in, say for example siva, practicing a form of self-deception?.

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  Zico

  HS,
  
  "What was it about this post that you think deals with the issues at hand."
  
  At the outset, you said you thought anyone with faith was lying to themselves. I think Leolaia was suggesting there can be a subjective experience to faith which is not a lie.
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  208

  Self Deceit and Faith.

  by hillary_step in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this thread is inspired by a comment made on another thread, but i thought it would make an interesting discussion.. self deceit is described as a "misconception that is favorable to the person who holds it".

  my premise is that faith is a form of self-deceit - lying to oneself.. so, i would ask of the "faithful" the following questions and would request that they be read carefully to ensure no that there is no misunderstanding of purpose.. 1) in what way is faith not self-deception?.

  2) is a person who has faith in a god that you do not believe in, say for example siva, practicing a form of self-deception?.

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  Zico

  Hillary,
  
  "Might I ask, both of yourself and other believers in a personal God, whether their can be in the faith of any believer an element of self-deceit and if so how you can tell? Though BA is willing in other threads to decry the Islamic God and its followers for example, where Shiva is concerned he takes the viewpoint that "time will tell". This strikes me as self-deceit in action.
  
  For example. Islamic extremists on a suicide mission have complete faith that at the moment of dying a martyrs death at the hands of the enemies of Islam that they will be transformed into a heavenly realm. Do you believe that this is possible. If not why not?
  
  I have to ask. Is there a stage of a persons "faith" where there is a possibility for self-deceit and if so where do you and other believers draw this line? I have great trouble in understanding that once the possibility of God existing raises its head, anything outside of this concept that believers add cannot function without an element of self-deceit."
  
  I'm not really sure I can add much to Leolaia's excellent post.
  
  I think the water is muddied where someone claims to have faith in something, that I would not see as faith, but a belief, it's simply different definitions I guess. I also think it's important to distinguish between faith and beliefs. As I said, I see faith as the personal evidence of a divine nature, which is something that people seem to have accessed despite many varying beliefs. If we experience something divine, this would constitute evidence that the divine exists, albeit subjective evidence. The experience can offer evidence of nothing else but that there is a divine source, imo. The suicide bomber may have had a divine experience, or experiences, that proves the divine exists, however, there could be no evidence that blowing himself up would then have him transformed into a heavenly realm. That would be a belief, since there's no evidence it's ever happened. Even if the divine being had told the bomber that this would happen, this would not constitute evidence, because the honest person should accept the possibility that the divine may be lying to him. BAs statement that "time will tell" is, again, belief, and not faith, imo, because there is no evidence for it. I accept that both these things are possible, that "time will tell" on the Shiva issue, and that suicide bombers will be transformed into a heavenly realm, but I don't see possibilities as having much to do with faith.
  
  I don't think beliefs necessarily involve self-deceit, though they certainly can and often do imo. I think self-deceit comes in, when you claim a belief is fact, when reality is that people form many different beliefs, and to claim one belief as fact when there are differing beliefs that have as much as validity as their own, and no evidence, even subjective, to prove that belief, might demand self-deceit, I suppose, though again, not necessarily imo, as it could depend on the evidence one had available. For example:
  
  In the example of the believer in Shiva. If someone has a divine experience whilst praying to Shiva, I could see how one could make the connection it came from Shiva, without having to resort to self-deceit, in fact, I see this as a rational view. If they met other Hindus who claimed the same experience with Shiva, I think they could hold the opinion without any self-deceit. If that same person then met Christians that claimed similar experiences, but that they came from 'Jesus' and they were then to say that these Jesus experiences were not real, and that only the ones that came from Shiva were real, I would agree that was self-deceit, because then they would have evidence that showed this opinion was wrong, and would need to lie to themselves to continue with their old beliefs. If the believer in Shiva adjusted their view in light of this new evidence, to then believe that, perhaps Shiva can work through other names, I wouldn't see this new view as self-deceit, as again, I think it would be quite rational. It, at least, doesn't invalidate the divine experience.
  
  Whilst I admit I have beliefs, I often like to strip away those beliefs, and focus on what I do know. What is real to me, is that the divine exists, and that I have an active relationship with something divine. The rest, is mere conjecture, including belief in the afterlife, admittedly, though I've found I'm able to cope with that.
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  31

  Getting married too young

  by freedomfighter in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  have noticed an inevitable trend in australia.

  (probably is all over the world).

  as a jw u can't have sex before marriage right?

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  Zico

  Sex isn't the only reason, though it can be a big reason. There's a lot of pressure on young people to marry when they start dating because 'you shouldn't date until you're ready for marriage' getting away from the annoying chaperone rule can be another reason.
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  208

  Self Deceit and Faith.

  by hillary_step in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this thread is inspired by a comment made on another thread, but i thought it would make an interesting discussion.. self deceit is described as a "misconception that is favorable to the person who holds it".

  my premise is that faith is a form of self-deceit - lying to oneself.. so, i would ask of the "faithful" the following questions and would request that they be read carefully to ensure no that there is no misunderstanding of purpose.. 1) in what way is faith not self-deception?.

  2) is a person who has faith in a god that you do not believe in, say for example siva, practicing a form of self-deception?.

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  Zico

  What a fascinating thread! Just wanted to add my thoughts:
  
  1) In what way is faith not self-deception?
  
  As nvrgnbk mentioned earlier in the thread, I have had some personal experiences that I consider a personal proof of God's existence, and which forms the basis of my faith. I accept though, that this is subjective, and have the utmost respect for atheists who have spent time analysing the world and come to different conclusions to me, based on the evidence they have at hand, having gone through an agnostic period myself! However, for me, I've had experiences that were as real as anything else I've ever experienced, my meeting with the divine as real as any meeting with any person, and for that reason, I have to say that to deny those, and thus to deny my 'faith' would be the real self-deception, personally.
  
  2) Is a person who has faith in a God that you do not believe in, say for example Siva, practicing a form of self-deception?
  
  I believe there is one God, and that none of us mere mortals are really capable of fully understanding God. You've probably heard the story of the blind men and the elephant. Each one was feeling the elephant, all felt a different part, and afterwards, all had different ideas of what the elephant was. Each blind man was touching the same elephant, and elephants are real, it wouldn't mean the elephant was not real, as there's still an object there. When it comes to God, I think we're like those blind men touching an elephant! I think the object of faith is the same for each, (since I view faith as the experience of the divine) however the details can be subjective, and thus could be interpreted incorrectly, I wouldn't be so arrogant as to claim all my interpretations are right, and everyone elses is wrong. I don't believe God is so small that it is only able to have one name. Back to the answer:
  
  If somebody prays to Siva, and what follows is a subjective, experience of the divine that is real to them, and then come to the conclusion that the experience was a meeting with Siva, I see no reason to suggest they're lying to themselves. Quite the opposite, in fact.
  
  Regards,
  Zico
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  94

  What Has Happened to This Place!!??

  by journey-on in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  what has happened to this place??!!.

  i left this board a while back to reorganize and get refocused.

  the vibe of jwd was changing and the forum became "unbalanced" (for lack of a better word).

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  Zico

  IT'S ALL TREVOR'S FAULT DAMN IT!
  
  Err... I mean, though there are a few 'old' posters still here, a lot of new ones have started to post more regularly of late, and so the board has certainly changed since I first came here, which will happen as new personalities enter the board. I assume this has happened a lot in it's history. Different doesn't mean bad though! Maybe you just need time to get used to the new people, or maybe you don't? If you don't enjoy the board, I wouldn't think there was much point wasting your time posting on it, as you won't single handedly make it the place you want it to be, not that I'd ask you to leave the board, do what makes you happy!
  
  Ah yes... and, hello!
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  1

  where did it go?

  by bite me in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the thread of wikipedia?

  i think people are on there attacking it, now i cannot find the thread here.

  go figure.

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  Zico

  It's still there!
  
  Click the link: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/148555/1.ashx