In recent weeks, I have seen several posters that some call the JW "lurkers," meaning the witnesses who read the articles of this site, and are perhaps questioning what the Watchtower has been teaching them, yet are still very defensive of the Watchtower's actions. As a result, I have seen and participated in several heated debates. It seems the main criticism of us is that we focus too much on the "negative," that we dig up the past too much, and worst of all, that we have nothing to really complain about, other than the personal vendettas some of us have against the Watchtower.
Well, since I always want to be open minded no matter how much I am frustrated, I will now address the so called lurkers. You come to this website and occasionally post your unflinching support of the Watchtower and its interpretation of the bible. One might get the feeling from reading such posts that you are a very faithful witness and should therefore be commended for your loyalty. I would never dispute this. However, you would not be on this website if you were not questioning in some way what you say you believe in. It is therefore logical to say that there is an inconsistency somewhere. So the question is, why are you here?
I will attempt to show you something you had not considered before, and I apologize in advance for talking too much. Another criticism of us is that we take Watchtower and Bible quotes out of context, or we combine unrelated articles to prove a biased point of our own. In an attempt to disprove this, I'll take as an example a frequently discussed topic: child abuse.
Now, I think regardless of the organization, one cannot in good conscience say that child abuse is a good thing. There has recently been a case of a Jehovah's Witness child abuser captured in California. Here is the link:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/11/122752/1.ashx
Now, of course, there are individual child abusers in every organization in the world, both secular and religious, the Watchtower is no exception. However, it is how the organization deals with such offenders that show who they really are. And what does the Watchtower do? They boast that they have no clergy class, yet they use the "clergy penitent privilege" to defend the accused. Now one might say that they have to defend themselves somehow, but why don't they simply tell the truth, since they don't see themselves as doing anything wrong, and they don't recognize the courts authority above them? Well, somewhere between the eight-by-eleven jail cell and the electronic ankle bracelet, they just might recognize the authority.
Here is my main point for discussion. I found it quite surprising, given the recent events in the courthouses across America, that advertised on the front page of the Watchtower’s official website is none other than the topic of child sexual abuse! See for yourself and feel free to read all the related articles on their site:
http://www.watchtower.org/
http://www.watchtower.org/e/19931008a/article_01.htm
When I started writing this post, the topic was on the front page. For some reason, they have now taken it down. It should be noted that their website has no discussion board, no email, and all the articles are nothing but duplications of their magazines, so nothing is new. I found, and no doubt some will be quite astonished, that to put such an article on their website was quite hypocritical even by their standards. Here is a quote:
"An Urgent Problem: Assaults on children are often cloaked in secrecy, so much so that they have been called perhaps the most unreported of crimes. Even so, such crimes have evidently spiraled upward in recent decades."
Interesting. So how do they defend their "two witnesses" rule? If they know child abuse is done in secret, how can there be two witnesses to the crime? The article shows that they draw conclusions from superficial observation rather than imperial evidence. They use a crude oversimplification of biblical principles in order to justify their extreme xenophobia and general dislike of everything outside of their organization. In the following articles, "How Can We Protect Our Children," and "Prevention in the Home," they clearly state that the abuser is usually someone you know or live with. They also go into great detail about the pain and suffering a victim goes through, while using careful wording to never mention what to do if the abuser is a Jehovah’s Witness. See this quote regarding worldly victims:
“Their whole future is at stake. They do not have the resources that adults have. Trauma can scar and shape them adversely for life. They are the ones who need and deserve tender treatment.—Compare Genesis 33:13, 14.
Parents must therefore make every reasonable effort to protect their children! Many responsible parents choose to seek out professional help for an abused child. Just as you would with a medical doctor, make sure that any such professional will respect your religious views.# Help your child rebuild his or her shattered self-esteem through a steady outpouring of parental love.”
Reading these articles a JW might come to ask oneself what to do if the abuser and the victim were another JW. The Watchtower has an answer for that too, just a very ambiguous one. Whereas before, they were talking about the effects on the worldly victims of child abuse, here’s what they have to say to members of their own congregation with the same problem:
http://www.watchtower.org/e/19951101a/article_01.htm
"Repressed Memories"
In recent years some have been "brokenhearted" for reasons that others find difficult to understand. They are adults who, on the basis of what have been described as "repressed memories," say that they were sexually abused when they were children.* Some have no thought of having been molested until, unexpectedly, they experience flashbacks and "memories" of an adult (or adults) abusing them when they were young. Do any in the Christian congregation have such disturbing thoughts? In a few lands, yes, and these dedicated ones may experience deep distress, anger, guilt, shame, or loneliness. Like David they may feel isolated from God and cry out: "Why, O Jehovah, do you keep standing afar off? Why do you keep yourself hid in times of distress?"—Psalm 10:1.
Many aspects of these "memories" are not well understood by mental-health professionals. Still, such "memories" can affect the spirituality of dedicated Christians. So we look with confidence to God's Word for guidance in handling them. The Bible provides "discernment in all things." (2 Timothy 2:7; 3:16) It also helps all concerned to put faith in Jehovah, "the Father of tender mercies and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our tribulation."—2 Corinthians 1:3, 4.
Did It Really Happen?
In the world, there is much controversy as to what these "memories" are and to what extent they represent things that actually happened. Jehovah's Witnesses are "no part of the world" and take no part in this controversy. (John 17:16) According to published reports, "memories" have sometimes proved to be accurate. For example, after insurance adjuster Frank Fitzpatrick "remembered" being molested by a certain priest, almost one hundred others came forward to claim that they too had been abused by the same priest. The priest reportedly admitted to the abuse.
It is noteworthy, however, that a number of individuals have been unable to corroborate their "memories." Some afflicted in this way have had vivid recollections of a certain individual committing abuse or of the abuse being committed in a specific place. Later, though, legitimate evidence to the contrary made it clear that these "remembered" details could not be true.”
Just look at how they talk to you. They patronize the reader and assume that you’re lying or seeking attention. Notice how many times they use quotes around the word memories, as if you weren’t really abused, and how they tell you that it can easily be solved by praying more. This seems a far cry from their earlier statements of the deep physical and mental scars of child abuse.
And why do worldly victims have “horrifying, lifelong physical and mental scars,” while the Jehovah’s Witness victims simply have “memories?” This seems quite illogical. Aren’t the JW’s God’s chosen people? If a JW molests a child, certainly his punishment would be considerably more severe because he’s supposed to “know better?” On the same token, shouldn’t a JW child be treated with more care and respect than a worldly child because they have been betrayed by their Christian brothers? But no, they’re told in not-so-subtle terms that they’re imagining things, and they simply have a “stricken spirit.”
I wish to clarify that not only did the Watchtower itself write these articles; they put them together on their own website. This is not the work of “apostates,” nor are we taking it out of context. It is almost impossible for a JW to read these articles and not see the discrepancy in the policies of child abuse outside and inside the Watchtower.
In conclusion, I do not disrespect Jehovah’s Witnesses, nor do I want to destroy their faith in God. I just want them to reconsider their loyalty to an organization and examine it from an objective point of view. If you still find it to be the truth, than none of this matters and you will have lost nothing. In light of all this, you might still argue that despite its flaws, at least the Watchtower is constantly bible orientated, and is warning the earth of its impending “doom.” However, I have come to learn that the bureaucratic mentality is the only constant of the Watchtower.
Peace everyone,
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JoinedPosts by Anitar
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A Message To All The Lurkers
by Anitar inin recent weeks, i have seen several posters that some call the jw "lurkers," meaning the witnesses who read the articles of this site, and are perhaps questioning what the watchtower has been teaching them, yet are still very defensive of the watchtower's actions.
as a result, i have seen and participated in several heated debates.
it seems the main criticism of us is that we focus too much on the "negative," that we dig up the past too much, and worst of all, that we have nothing to really complain about, other than the personal vendettas some of us have against the watchtower.
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College Degree = $23K more a year salary
by under_believer incheck out the news on this recent press release from the us census bureau.
here's the google news listing for it (so you can see all the places this story has been covered): click here.. .
lest anybody think the society is taking a softer stance on this issue, well, they're not.
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What happens when they have to take psych courses and force themselves to examine the watchtower from a sociological point of view?
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You know what's funny? My mom has been rehearsing her talk at the KH for days now, and it's all about how the witnesses are so proud that they are no part of the world, and do not fit into the world's view of religious groups, and have nothing to do with "satan's system."
They boast and brag that they are not part of "chrisendom," yet they claim non-profit status to avoid paying taxes. They brag even more that they don't have a clergy class, yet they use the "clergy penitent privelege" to defend their pedofiles.
Imagine the things I could tell her if she would only listen...
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Active JWs, hows KN37 going?
by StillGroggy inhey everybody, i had an interesting time pushing a tract that i don't believe in this weekend.
i had to develop my own method of placing it without having to talk about it, since i fear if i was confronted by someone asking "do you people think you're the only true religion", i might break down and tell the person at the door "no, i don't".
the witness at the door with me would scream in terror, and i would be insta-dfed.
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I've been trying to say since my first post that going door to door is on principal a selfish endevor. Not to say that the people are selfish, that was confused by someone earler.
Consider this. How many industries actually sell their products door to door anymore? Sure there might be small businesses in a big city where it's quite crowded. But put simply, the watchtower is the only corporation of its size in the world that sells its products in such an antiquated and ineffective manner. If the mesage was so important, why use such a crude method? Because it does not allow for public debate, or scholarly analysis. If you doubted the nutritional value of a Big Mac, would you not go and find a list of the ingredients from the manager if necessary? Why should it be any different with religion?
Lets put aside religion and even child abuse for a minute. I'm an average citizen, college student, mostly broke. Most of the commercials that are supposed to appeal to my demographic actually serve to turn me off. I am not going to buy diet pills from the home shopping network, I am not going to subscribe to a VISA platinum master card just because it comes in the mail, and most of all, I will never subscribe to a dime a dozen group of psudo-religious duds just because they come to my door.
My friends are mostly non religious. They're average students, none of us are very business savy or spiritually orientated. Even they know never to take people like the witnesses seriously, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to see it's all fake! The most that people do is have a few studies out of politeness, then avoid them until they get the hint. For God's sake, I knew this stuff was phony when I was six years old!
My point is not to insult the the faithfull witnesses. Believe it or not, I actually care about them, and I want them to think for themselves. Think about this: Jesus sacrificed himself as the ultimate display of humility and love for mankind. When you consider the real reasons you go door to door, do they sound very Christian to you?
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Active JWs, hows KN37 going?
by StillGroggy inhey everybody, i had an interesting time pushing a tract that i don't believe in this weekend.
i had to develop my own method of placing it without having to talk about it, since i fear if i was confronted by someone asking "do you people think you're the only true religion", i might break down and tell the person at the door "no, i don't".
the witness at the door with me would scream in terror, and i would be insta-dfed.
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Yesidid: Forgive me, I was not informed that being a JW or exJW was a privilege that one should aspire to. I was under the impression that the religion should be avoided all-together, is that not the entire point of this site? But I'm sure I got that wrong too.
When you reference my "pontificating," I never said the people were pathetic, but rather the ways in which the watchtower forces them to condem other religions evil deeds while at the same time covering up their own. Jesus never would have taught his followers to practice such disgusting hypocracy.
And since you know so much about my shoes, then I suppose you know what it's like to take care of your handicapped mother all your life? To spend your childhood comforting her for being beaten by my father? To have finally found her freedom after twenty five years of enslavement to a man she thought she loved, only to lose her to an auto-cratic, child raping cult?
To watch her new "friends" move in on her and lavish her with free gifts all the while whispering sweet nothings in her ear about how satanic her family was, especially me? To watch her slowly degrade over six years from a proud, independent woman to a xenophobic, shriveled excuse for a human being? Seeing her as a pathetic shell of her former self and no one believes you?
To have your sister, brother, father and the rest of your family shrug it off as a PHASE?! To have her try to sabotage your plans for college, to give complete strangers a key to your house while you're still in it?! To listen to her singing the kingdom melodies over and over again like programed drone? To come home everyday from school to find a JW mowing your lawn, or washing your clothes, or giving your mother a sponge bath?! To slowly come to the horrifying realization that she is crazier than your father, that you are the adult and she is the child, and that you have failed her in the most sacred duty ever entrusted to you? And that finally she throws you out of the house with no where to go because of your sexual preferance, and simply because you tried to show her "aposate literature!!!!!!"
But I guess you know all that.
Again, I apologize for not meeting your requirements for giving advice to people that I care about. Next time, I'll make sure to learn as much about them as you knew about me when you made your comments.
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Active JWs, hows KN37 going?
by StillGroggy inhey everybody, i had an interesting time pushing a tract that i don't believe in this weekend.
i had to develop my own method of placing it without having to talk about it, since i fear if i was confronted by someone asking "do you people think you're the only true religion", i might break down and tell the person at the door "no, i don't".
the witness at the door with me would scream in terror, and i would be insta-dfed.
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Welcome to all the new members! It makes me so happy that almost every thread we have newbies! Bravo! Still Groogy, you have an unfortunate predicament here. You might have already asked yourself this, but does this make you wonder where is Jesus in all of this? Or is this just a total waste of your time?
You know about six years ago, before my mom got involved in this "religion," I admit I had respect (very very little, especially seeing how they treat their children) for them because they gave the appearance of good Christian people and sometimes martyrs. Now that I know it's all a cheap facade, I can hardly go five minutes without thinking about how they stole her away from me.
Now I can't help thinking how pathetic they have become. I've read everyone's posts and have pity on them, not because I think I'm better than them or that they're inferior, but rather because of the absurd dogma the watchtower has forced down our throats our whole lives.
If I'm not mistaken, there was much more enthusiasm among the JW's in the 1950's and 60's. Then they started leaving their magazines in hospitals and laundromats as a way to fill up their timecards. Everytime I see their literature in a public place, I make sure to throw it in the garbage where it belongs. And now they've resorted to this? I ask you current JW's, what's next? Will you simply throw your literature in a visible trash can outside a public place so people will at least see it and you will get to fill your time cards? Because if you think about it, that's pretty much what you're doing already.
If it was me, I couldn't look at myself in the mirror anymore. You guys have real courage because you have the real truth and you're forced to partake in this hypocracy. But fear not. Blessed are those who are poor in spirit and meek and humble, they will inherit the Earth.
Still Groggy, I neither judge you nor shun you. I welcome you with all the kindness, love, and tolerance that I recieved upon my arrival here. That by the way is what we call true sentiment, something you'll be shocked to discover upon leaving the watchtower.
The problem with going door to door for anything is it is inheritently selfish. This may sound silly because JWs sacrifice countless hours of family time in field service. But no matter how you twist it, in the end, you're only doing it for yourself. The only way to get ahead in the congregation is by recruiting new members. When they're at the door, no matter how sincere they seem, they're only there to save themselves, not you. And consider this: When they're giving you their pre-packaged presentation and painting a flowery picture of "paradise" with eternal beauty and dancing lions and children frolicking with pandas, keep in mind they're not really trying to convince you, they're trying to convince themselves.
A JW is no better than a door to door vacuum salesman, or a telemarketer, or even a trick-or-treater. In fact, the only difference between a JW and a trick-or-treater is that they're the ones selling tricks, and the joke is always on you.
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Special Assembly 2-Day 2,000 delegates and TWO baptisms!
by MinisterAmos injust got back from the special one day assembly and had to share this important info.
only two baptisms today; two girls about 15-16 out of 2,000 attendees.. i stumbled more than two with my anti-witnessing.
i posted un expose material in the bathrooms along with pre and post nov 1995 1914 generation belief.. incidentally, attendance was down almost 25% over last year as well.
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Hello Jam! Very good observations. It may be possible that the men who wrote the bible only thought of angels as men. What if there are women angels? Once again it displays a complete departure from everything we are taught about God. Why would he punish innocent people for something they had no control over? If we did the same in this day and age how would he view us?
Now, I do not profess to have a complete understanding of either God or the bible, nor do I pretend to be omnipotent. However I do believe God is misunderstood many times. I hope that helps.
So welcome to the board and I hope you come back soon!
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Hi Mike, thank you as always for your words of encouragement. I'm sorry you still get their pamphlets stuffed under your door, that can't be easy. I just want you to stay strong, and remember I'm here for you.
You're right about the TV news. I see periodically the Dateline and Oprah specials about child molesters. However the problem with these programs is that they only focus on individuals, not organizations. The watchtower is not the only organization that allows this. It is only logical that the public interest will shift to a larger problem like this when they've had enough of seeing one man arrested at a time, and the watchtower will only add gallons of fuel to the flame.
Your earlier comments got me thinking. Perhaps the witnesses are kept so busy and repressed that they might not even know what child molestation is. I know that sounds absurd, but consider this. We know they're not really allowed to read their bible. When they do, they can never apply it to themselves. They are perpetually lied to about everything in life. Is it really so impossible to imagine a JW reading this thinking, "what the heck are they talking about? I've never even heard about this!"
What I see is my mom never has time to finish her work. She's always trying to do more field service, she never feels good enough, so the work she does do is marginal, half finished and just made up answers to the magazine questions. I think she's becoming a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants witness, and I don't think she's the only one.
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I think this is a good time to have a moment of silence for the victims of both JW and nonJW pedofiles everywhere...
I think a big underlying issue here is the courts nationwide finally becoming aware of this problem. I think the reason this took so long is because there was little or no legal precedent for this kind of case. Many have heard about the Catholic Church scandal, and while there were many individual hypocrites, this is quite a different story.
You see, this organization is founded on the very basis of hypocracy, especially the attitude toward child abuse. Here is where the typical JW would condem me. So I say to him/her, no matter what you say, the facts are still the facts. The very things you people say now to defend your beloved watchtower are exactly the things that a hot shot lawer will one day use against you in court. Because to be honest, this case is a lawyer's dream. At the end of the day, how does it feel to be in an organization like this?
This is exactly the type of case that some lawers like to ride all the way to victory. This is the quintessential underdog story. This has the potental to be an international bombshell, far surpassing the Catholic Church in the sheer revolting hypocracy of it all.
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The Battery is almost Dead.
by KW13 infor over 100 years the same message of doom and gloom for the world has been preached with a twist.
if your a jehovah's witness you can be saved.. .
i think people are tired of expecting the end of the system, the older generation (there are more older ones than younger i am guessing) are seeing the end of their lives when they thought they never would and some of them probably think about the false prophecy.. .
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Wait everyone! Why are you all condeming Scotsman? Do you not see he's a newbie? Yes, his comments were considerably un-enlightened but please don't attack him! He has the right to say what he wants just like the rest of us. Don't you all remember what it was like in the org?
He came here willingly, no one forced him. Notice how he hasn't posted again, we just might have scared him away. I know you're all just trying to help, but please show some more compassion. Just the fact that he's here shows he is questioning the watchtower which is our goal in the first place. He's probably just an individual, he's certainly not the borg itself. In the spirit of Jesus Christ, we have to be willing to offer friendship to those who disagree with us. I learned that lesson when I got into a heated arguement with Gumby a while ago.
KW13: Thanks for the words of encouragement. It really is sad how short the memory of the rank and file is. They truly believe this is radical and new and divinely inspired.
Mary: I think your aunt is just like my mom, only twenty years younger
I'm sorry for sounding so harsh, I really do love you all. But I think we can get a little carried away sometimes. After all, many of us were once like Scotsman. How would you have felt if you opened up to strangers and they reacted like this?
Peace everyone
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