three months ago an elder came to our house to try to answer some of my questions.none were answered to my satisfaction and it was obvious some seemed difficult to him so he said he would do some more research and get back to me.well,last night at the meeting he told my wife that he and another elder would like to come over next week to continue our original conversation.. my wife told them that i didn't really want to be a jw anymore and they said they weren't giving up on me just yet.they also said they like me as a person and i really don't think they want to df me anytime soon as this would be too traumatic to my wife and might push her out of the religion for good.. my plan is to start with the first question and stick to it until it is answered to my satisfaction which i doubt it can be.it is the following:.
where does the bible say that god has an "organization" on earth and uses a governing body to direct it?.
i have some research ready to use but i'd like to ask you if you have any comments or information you'd like to share that i can use in some way.i appreciate all your help on this one and i'll keep you posted on how it goes next week.thank you very much.. goldminer
Goldminer:
Hope your meeting with elders goes well for you and your wife. You know where you are headed and sometimes we just have to do it our own way. As a heads up, you may have an elder saying to you that Noah had the Ark to use for survival and that is what the organization is for JW's surival. I told the elder that the Org is not my Ark but Jesus Christ is and he did not argue that with me. Course I have not heard back from him either.
Best to you both
Sheri
does anyone remember "the truth that leads to everlasting life" book?
it was blue, and was intended as a six month home study book.
i think it came out in 1974at an assembly with much fanfare and gasping!.
Yes, I have this book and studied it in 1978 and year later became a JW. Later I taught using the Knowledge Book and remember them saying we should not bring other material into the study and drag out the study. Yet I did not follow protocol and eventually it was my bringing in other sources that I found the great lie.
I did have trouble with the change in 1995 over the generation, prayed about it and got on with life and forgot about it (really just pushed all questions to the back of my mind).
Now I have great conversations/emails with the women who studied the truth book with me as to how much we have learned since fading or in her case being shunned (yet not removed by elders) because of her independent thinking.
Peace,
Sheri
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although i am pleased when i hear about children of dubs who are pursuing sports at the high school, college and professionally level, it also disturbs me that so many of us in the past lost out on these opportunities because of the rigid views of the dubdum.. a friend of mine that is still active says that many of these changes or new light occurrs because thinking dubs stand up to the elders and make these personal decisions for their family without the advice of elders.. do you ever feel that you should/could stand up for your beliefs even when they are against the advice of elders, eventually you could inspire change within the religion?.
i ask because through out history change has ocurred because of standing up to those in authority.. examples, gandi, martin luther king, susan b. anthony to name just a few.. what are your thoughts?.
Do as I say not as I do:
The kids are told not to participate in sports, yet the adults gather together for the big game on TV, wear their game shirts, have a party and are so loud in their cheering on their team. Make is a real sport of "My Team" beat "Your Team", even one elder's wife even mentioned that their game party could stumble someone. You can see them attending other cong. meetings so that they can be home for the big game. The teens can see this as just more double talk.
Then the get togethers at the part-it was the men who got up tight if you were not playing to win, while the younger teens could only sit by and watch or walk away. Eventually, the volley ball games came to an end when some began to complain of the main group of elders and ms servants taking it to seriously.
Oh yes no spirit of competition among JW's its all about love
Peace,
Sheri
i was raised from birth as a jehovah's witness, but have been disfellowshipped for 13 years.
alot of ex- witnesses are bitter and bad mouth the witnesses, but my experience has left me feeling this way: being in the "truth" makes some people happy, and they are truly doing what is right in their own heart, and to condemn them for that is wrong.
as much as we oppose the witnesses and can see the real trurh, everyone is entitled to believe what they choose, and i truly believe that if someone is doing what is right in their heart and it makes them truly happy, then god will love them for the pureness of their heart.
Welcome to the board!
Sometimes when you feel that you have been betrayed by what you believed was the "truth" and then start to research and find it is not there are many emotions that come up such as hurt and anger, which takes awhile to release.
If one was allowed the free choice to believe what they felt was acceptable to them and still have the freedom of friendship with others all the while also granting them freedom of thought, then you may find that there would not be so much expressed against witnesses. However, the "Society" preaches freedom of speech but does not practice this nor the freedom to question biblical teachings as presented by WBTS.
Either you are with us or you are against us forcing all members to adhere to this pricinipal, or to be secretive in their support of a loving friendship that is now hidden in fear.
This board is a great site for expressing yourself and also learning from others on scripture teachings, just keep an open mind and you will feel the peace and healing to begin.
Peace & Love
Sheri
i made a comment to my 15 year old son last night about the arrogance of the jw teaching that all non-jws will be destroyed at armageddon.
he responded that i am mistaken, that the jws teach that jehovah reads hearts, even of those who are being preached to today.
in other words, no one is 'written off' like that, and btw he hates it when i take a teaching i don't like and exaggerate it like that..... .
*** w84 7/15 31 Questions From Readers *** Questions From Readers
õ First Timothy 4:10 calls God “a Savior of all sorts of men, especially of faithful ones.” So will any unfaithful ones be saved?
No. The point is that salvation is assured particularly for those exercising faith.
The apostle Paul advised Timothy that a benefit of godly devotion is that it “holds promise of the life now and that which is to come.” (1 Timothy 4:6-8) Then Paul wrote: “For to this end we are working hard and exerting ourselves, because we have rested our hope on a living God, who is a Savior of all sorts of men, especially of faithful ones.”—1 Timothy 4:10.
God holds out to all men the possibility of salvation. As Paul wrote: “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.” (1 Timothy 2:5, 6) But who will respond to the ransom, choosing life rather than death? (Deuteronomy 30:19, 20) Some people reject the Christian message of salvation. In others, the ‘seed’ takes root and grows for a while, but later they let opposition, material interests or other concerns come between them and salvation.—Matthew 13:3-8.
So while the salvation God holds out is available potentially to everyone, the way things turn out will prove that salvation is particularly for “faithful ones.” The apostle Peter thus urged: “For this reason, brothers, all the more do your utmost to make the calling and choosing of you sure for yourselves; for if you keep on doing these things you will by no means ever fail.”—2 Peter 1:10; John 3:16.
*** w97 2/15 29 Questions From Readers *** Questions From Readers
“The Watchtower” of August 15, 1996, said: “In the final part of the tribulation, ‘flesh’ that has fled to Jehovah’s side will be saved.” Is that suggesting that after the first phase of the great tribulation, many new ones will come over to God’s side?
That was not the point being made.
Jesus’ words found at Matthew 24:22 will primarily be fulfilled in the future by a salvation through the first part of the coming great tribulation, the attack on religion. The article said: “Recall that ‘flesh,’ both of the anointed remnant and of the ‘great crowd,’ already will have been saved when
Such faithful ones will be in no danger when Jesus and his heavenly army act in the final part of the tribulation. But who will thus pass through that phase of the tribulation? Revelation 7:9, 14 shows that a great crowd having an earthly hope will survive. What of spirit-anointed Christians? “Questions From Readers” in The Watchtower of August 15, 1990, discussed why we cannot be dogmatic about when the remnant of anointed ones will be taken to heaven. So the recent article (August 15, 1996) left the matter open, making the general comment: “Likewise in the final part of the tribulation, ‘flesh’ that has fled to Jehovah’s side will be saved.”
As to whether any new ones may be able to learn the truth and come over to God’s side after the great tribulation begins, note Jesus’ words recorded at Matthew 24:29-31. After the outbreak of the tribulation, the sign of the Son of man will appear. Jesus said that all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves and lament. He did not say anything about people waking up to the situation, repenting, taking God’s side, and becoming true disciples.
Similarly, in the parable of the sheep and the goats, the Son of man appears and judicially separates people on the basis of what they had done or not done in the past. Jesus said nothing about people who long displayed goatlike attributes suddenly turning around and becoming like sheep. He comes to judge on the basis of what people had already proved to be.—Matthew 25:31-46.
But, again, there is no reason to be dogmatic on this point. God’s people, both of the anointed and of the great crowd, know what they have to do now—preach and make disciples. (Matthew 28:19, 20; Mark 13:10) Right now is the period for us to take to heart the exhortation: “Working together with him, we also entreat you not to accept the undeserved kindness of God and miss its purpose. For he says: ‘In an acceptable time I heard you, and in a day of salvation I helped you.’ Look! Now is the especially acceptable time. Look! Now is the day of salvation.”—2 Corinthians 6:1, 2.
i just got off the phone with my former bible study who i haven't talked to in over a year.
for the backstory look at http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/98983/1.ashx .
so, we chatted about family and just got caught up.
Since she gave you her email address and was surprised about shunning I would suggest that you give her brief outline of the things that you do not agree and not overload her with all information at one time. I am not sure of your issues that lead to disassocation but you could point out the following:
In Knowledge Book: Pg 96 #16 "destruction of Jerusalem by the Babyloanians in 607 BCE was very significant" then note that every historical source (other then WTS) points this year to be 586/587 BCE. POINT: If she does Search on web using "destruction of Jerusalem 1st Temple" she will get many legitimate historical sites to verify this. Especially the Foreign Minstry of Israel site, which I find "very significant". As well as many books just searching Amazon.com booksite.
In Knowledge Book: Pg 96 #17 "the appointed times of the nations" began with 607 BCE ....counting 2,250 yrs from 607 BCE, however, we arrive at the year 1914 CE...#18 bring point that Jesus began ruling at that time to be discussed next chapter." POINT: 1874 was orginally taught as when Jesus began ruling and that Armageddon would be 1914, but was changed after the fact, which any JW teaching you will confirm as true. So why importance of 607 to 1914 so that they can claim that the annointed of Jehovah's Witnesses were picked to be God's sole channel of communication for the World fulfilling prophecy for the "three and a half times (1260 days) and the 1290 days to 1919. See Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy Book matrix on page 301(this is in the old book not sure about new Daniel Book page number)
POINT: Without keeping this date they can't keep their sole channel status, which means only Salvation through JW's and death to the world. She may not realize that since while doing bible study this is not directly addressed. Look at JW home page FAQ under www.jw-meadia.org site the question: Do you believe you are the only ones who will be saved? Answer: No but then does a real double talk answer. Yet direct her to: W89 9/1 p. 19 **Remaining Organized for Survival Into the Millennium**: Only JW's have any scriptual hope. Also, W83 2/15 p.12-15 **You can live forever in Paradise Earth-But How?**#3 on list of the 4 steps for salvation reads in part:..Jehovah is use only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it.
Thus any of her non JW family, friends, rest of the entire world will die. Also there is article that JW are Not to expect a big change in hearts to lead all just before the end to JW organization. So the light keeps changing and getting brighter, yet no other religious organization can be also changing light and getting brighter??
Explain that you are still researching or reaffirming your beliefs, such as realizing the the Kingdom Interlinear Translation is showing that naos (temple structure-Divine Habitation)is only used in revelations and not hieron (entire temple structure-grounds/courtyards) that is correctly explained in **w60 8/15 p 493-6 The Temple of the Apostles' Time**, however, **W808/15 p 14-16 The "Great Crowd" Renders Sacred Service Where?** actually quotes Mark 2:14 as being naos when the Greek Interlinear shows it is Hieron. They states the following but purposely do not quote Mark 2:14---"For example, in the Bible account of where Jesus Christ drove the money changers and merchantment out of Herod's Temple, the original Greek word used is naos'. THIS IS CLEARLY A LIE!!!
POINT: Both Russell and Rutherford had placed the annointed as princes in Christ's Throne and the great crowd in heaven before the Throne, but Rutherford years later after 1925 Armageddon didnt happen changed from teaching that only JW's go to heaven (2 classes-annointed & great crowd) who would teach the wordly people (new bible studies) on a paradise earth, to today's understanding only JW's survive with one class in heaven and great crowd on earth, teaching resurrected wordly people. I guess it really doesn't matter what scripture states only what the Watchtower states.
I know that I a ramble on here especially when I am saying keep it brief and let her know you have information to share if she so desires to have it then share it.
Peace
Sheri
i'm a bit conflicted.
a few years back, as a jw, i studied with a wonderful family from china.
they moved away and i transferred over the study to a jw couple in their new area.
I was also had a bible study going when I came accross information that I could not accept as a JW. I did further research and came to the conclusion that this is not the sole channel of God but people like other religions doing what they think is right and truth. I explained to my bible study what had been discovered and that I could not accept the sole channel and that all would die except JW's at Armageddon. Of course when put that why she said she did not believe God would do that either, since we had not covered anything to say that exactly, we only learn those things after we are "in" and attending all the meetings. I told her I was on a journey to check all that I had been taught.
I was truthful in explaining that this would be considered by some as if I was trying to block her progress in the truth, but she said that she was not willing to study with others and would I be willing to share with her what I was reaffirming. When my old book study conductor called for my hours I told him that I was not studying with her any longer. He is fully aware of my questions & issues, but has also chose to not follow up with me on anything, thereby, I am just fading, which is fine at this time.
I did help bring another person in to the truth and I feel regrets about that and I am sure one day we will run into eachother, but I will be truthful and at the same time make known that this is not about my relationship with God its about my relationship with an organization.
So dont be afraid to talk with them, they may be seeking you out for a reason, who knows the angels may be directing them to you. Just go in love and peace.
Sheri
so i was writing a paper the other day, specifically about the skewed world view that i had had as a witness, and i typed the following - .
pain, misery, strife, these were all things that used to prove to me that jehovah's witnesses were correct in their assessment of a dying world which was soon to be liberated/obliterated by the hand of god.
this "liberation" was something that i desperately longed for.
So many JW's, myself included, tucked away that reality in the dark recesses of our brains & hearts and said Jehovah reads all hearts when it comes to Armaggedon or that there will be major changes before it all breaks loose, yet the WT and Questions from Readers state the very opposite. True there are some that are proud of that fact but I believe a great many don't accept it as so written and ignore and excuse the articles that touch upon it.
I was sobered up during an assembly last year when the speaker said that if Armaggedon came today only 8,000 persons would be alive the next day of the 2.1 million now living in Hawaii. I sat there is total disbelief, then anger then started my journey in researching why he really could say that. The JW literature gives you the four steps we all must take for Salvation, the big one being: You must support and be part of God's SOLE CHANNEL his visible organization on earth. If, not you and the rest are all toast.
I have wondered how many others heard and did not process the speakers comments, and if they did just excused them. When I did bring this to the attention of a few the first comment was "he should not of said that", but then I handed one person the two watchtower articles that show he had the full right to say what has been printed. One's comment when she was reading the WT article was a long "Oh". I told the elder that if we (JWs) dont believe that then we (JW Org) should not print it. Of course then begins the process of saying leave it to Jehovah to read all hearts etc, etc, etc, ignore, excuse and discard, but we (JWs) are still the sole channel of God!
It feels good to be able to see clearly and love freely all mankind.
Peace
Sheri
russell held that christ's return was realized in 1874. we also know that this date was moved forward by 40 years, to 1914 during the rutherford presidency.
the dishonesty of the society in printing things that either openly state, or strongly imply that a 1914 parousia is what the bible students taught from the very beginning has been the subject of discussion lately.
i think what is far less clear is when and how this change from 1874 to 1914 actually happened.
Thank you for the good scans. Can anyone point me to a thread on the change from using "grace" to "undeserved kindness", I did read a thread the other day that quoted from Ruthersford book "Children" that was given at 1941 convention he referred to "the Lords grace", yet I do not see "grace" being used by Jehovah's witnesses or at least since I was baptised in 1980.
Any help on this would be appreciated.
Peace
Sheri
to my dear xxxxx hello there-how are things going with you?
i've been thinking of you a lot, i've wanted to write you this for quite some time.
i guess we both know that things aren't the way they used to be-between you and i; between you and jehovah's organization-and i just want you to know how much i miss you.
Blondie you are so right, when I read the website FAQ and just could not believe the double talk, masters of manipulation! I would not respond with much more than a "Thank You, hope all is going well with you too." sign off as Living in love and peace for all mankind.
Peace,
Sheri
