Elders coming over next week to discuss my questions

by Goldminer 28 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Goldminer
    Goldminer

    Three months ago an elder came to our house to try to answer some of my questions.None were answered to my satisfaction and it was obvious some seemed difficult to him so he said he would do some more research and get back to me.Well,last night at the meeting he told my wife that he and another elder would like to come over next week to continue our original conversation.

    My wife told them that I didn't really want to be a jw anymore and they said they weren't giving up on me just yet.They also said they like me as a person and I really don't think they want to df me anytime soon as this would be too traumatic to my wife and might push her out of the religion for good.

    My plan is to start with the first question and stick to it until it is answered to my satisfaction which I doubt it can be.It is the following:

    Where does the bible say that God has an "organization" on earth and uses a Governing Body to direct it?

    I have some research ready to use but I'd like to ask you if you have any comments or information you'd like to share that I can use in some way.I appreciate all your help on this one and I'll keep you posted on how it goes next week.Thank you very much.

    Goldminer

  • badboy
    badboy

    Organization is completely unneccessary

    CT RUSSELL said that

  • carla
    carla

    Won't they just pull out the ever famous- God has always used an org? Try and point out the numerous times He used individuals and they will use the 'Israel was chosen' and it is a 'type' of org. Then you get to the New Test. Here is a few notes I found, I must have tried this at one time. Obviously to no avail. But here they are, I will leave it to you to decipher them, sorry.

    Why Paul went to Jerusalem?

    Gal 2 1:2- went because of revelation by the Lord, others preaching 'another' gospel (not directed by org to come)

    Acts 15 1-2 Paul & Barnabus went to complain, adherance to law of Moses

    Gal 2:6 men of reputation contribute nothing

    Acts 15:22 Paul & Barnabus do not take letter from elders-2 frm cong. appointed to read it

    Gal 2:10 Paul opposes Cephas, not living Christian way openly (also see Gal 1 15-24)

    Acts 15:35 Paul & Barnabus teach frm the Word of the Lord not letter frm Jerusalem

    hmm, sorry my notes are bit hodgepodge. I'm sure you have more anyway.I do too, somewhere. When I did try this they just made excuses and the fact that Paul even went to Jerusalem 'proved' that there was an org that God used.

    Don't hurt your head banging it against the jw wall now!

    Good luck, carla

  • blondie
    blondie

    *** rs p. 280 Organization ***

    Organization

    Definition:

    An association or society of persons whose efforts are coordinated for a particular work or purpose. Members of an organization are united by administrative arrangements and by standards or requirements. Persons who are dedicated and baptized witnesses of Jehovah come into Jehovah’s organization as a result of personal choice, not by birth nor by any compulsion. They have been drawn to his earthly organization because of its teachings and practices and because they want to share in the work that it is doing.

    ***

    rs p. 280 - p. 284 Organization ***

    Does

    Jehovah really have an organization here on earth?

    To answer that question, consider the following:

    Are

    God’s heavenly creatures, the angels, organized?

    Dan. 7:9, 10: "I kept on beholding until there were thrones placed and the Ancient of Days sat down. His clothing was white just like snow, and the hair of his head was like clean wool. His throne was flames of fire; its wheels were a burning fire. There was a stream of fire flowing and going out from before him. There were a thousand thousands that kept ministering to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand that kept standing right before him. The Court took its seat, and there were books that were opened."

    Ps. 103:20, 21: "Bless Jehovah, O you angels of his, mighty in power, carrying out his word, by listening to the voice of his word. Bless Jehovah, all you armies of his, you ministers of his, doing his will." (An "army" is an organized group.)

    How

    did God convey instructions to his servants on earth in times past?

    When worshipers of Jehovah were few in number, he gave directions to family heads such as Noah and Abraham, and they then acted as Jehovah’s spokesmen to their families. (Gen. 7:1, 7; 12:1-5) When Jehovah delivered the Israelites from Egypt, he gave them directions through Moses. (Ex. 3:10) At Mount Sinai, God organized the people into a nation, providing laws and regulations to govern their worship and their relations with one another. (Ex. 24:12) He established a priesthood to take the lead in matters of worship and to instruct the people in Jehovah’s requirements; at times he also raised up prophets to deliver needed exhortation and warning to the people. (Deut. 33:8, 10; Jer. 7:24, 25) Thus, although Jehovah listened to the prayers of individual worshipers, he provided instruction for them through an organizational arrangement.

    As the time neared for Jehovah to begin to unify true worshipers with himself by means of Jesus Christ, God sent him to earth to act as His spokesman. (Heb. 1:1, 2) Then with the outpouring of holy spirit at Pentecost of 33 C.E., the Christian congregation was brought into existence. After Jesus had returned to heaven, this congregation became Jehovah’s arrangement for instructing and for coordinating the efforts of individual Christians. There were overseers to take the lead in local congregations, and a central governing body made necessary decisions and helped to coordinate activity. Clearly, Jehovah had brought into existence an organization on earth made up of true Christians.—Acts 14:23; 16:4, 5; Gal. 2:7-10.

    Do Jehovah’s works of physical creation indicate that he is a God of organization?

    Isa. 40:26: "Raise your eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he calls even by name. Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one of them is missing." (The stars are grouped into galaxies and move in relation to one another, even though the characteristics of the individual stars differ. The planets move with precision timing, in assigned orbits. The electrons found in every atom of every element also have orbits. And the structure of all matter follows mathematical patterns that are so consistent that it was possible for scientists to predict the existence of certain elements before they actually discovered them. All of this gives evidence of extraordinary organization.)

    Does the Bible show that true Christians would be an organized people?

    Matt. 24:14; 28:19, 20: "This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come." "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them . . . teaching them." (How would this be accomplished without organization? When Jesus trained his early disciples for this work, He did not simply tell each one to go wherever he desired and to share his faith in whatever way he chose. He trained them, gave them instructions and sent them out in an organized manner. See Luke 8:1; 9:1-6; 10:1-16.)

    Heb. 10:24, 25: "Let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you behold the day drawing near." (But to where would a person direct interested ones so they could obey this command if there were no organization with regular meetings where they could gather?)

    1 Cor. 14:33, 40: "God is a God, not of disorder, but of peace. . . . Let all things take place decently and by arrangement." (The apostle Paul is here discussing orderly procedure at congregation meetings. Applying this inspired counsel requires respect for organization.)

    1 Pet. 2:9, 17: "But you are ‘a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies’ of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. . . . Have love for the whole association of brothers." (An association of people whose efforts are directed to accomplish a particular work is an organization.)

    Are those who are faithful servants of God simply individuals who are scattered in the various churches of Christendom?

    2 Cor. 6:15-18: "What portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? . . . ‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’; ‘and I will take you in.’ ‘And I shall be a father to you, and you will be sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah the Almighty." (Is a person really a faithful servant of God if he continues to share in worship with those who show by their way of life that they really are unbelievers? See the main heading "Babylon the Great.")

    1 Cor. 1:10: "Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought." (Such unity does not exist among the varied churches of Christendom.)

    John 10:16: "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd." (Since Jesus would bring such ones into "one flock," is it not obvious that they could not be scattered in Christendom’s religions?)

    How can Jehovah’s visible organization in our day be identified?

    (1) It truly exalts Jehovah as the only true God, magnifying his name.—Matt. 4:10; John 17:3.

    (2) It fully recognizes the vital role of Jesus Christ in Jehovah’s purpose—as the vindicator of Jehovah’s sovereignty, the Chief Agent of life, the head of the Christian congregation, the ruling Messianic King.—Rev. 19:11-13; 12:10; Acts 5:31; Eph. 1:22, 23.

    (3) It adheres closely to God’s inspired Word, basing all its teachings and standards of conduct on the Bible.—2 Tim. 3:16, 17.

    (4) It keeps separate from the world.—Jas. 1:27; 4:4.

    (5) It maintains a high level of moral cleanness among its members, because Jehovah himself is holy.—1 Pet. 1:15, 16; 1 Cor. 5:9-13.

    (6) It devotes its principal efforts to doing the work that the Bible foretold for our day, namely, the preaching of the good news of God’s Kingdom in all the world for a witness.—Matt. 24:14.

    (7) Despite human imperfections, its members cultivate and produce the fruits of God’s spirit—love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control—doing so to such a degree that it sets them apart from the world in general.—Gal. 5:22, 23; John 13:35.

    How can we show respect for Jehovah’s organization?

    1 Cor. 10:31: "Do all things for God’s glory."

    Heb. 13:17: "Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will render an account."

    Jas. 1:22: "Become doers of the word, and not hearers only."

    Titus 2:11, 12: "The undeserved kindness of God which brings salvation to all sorts of men has been manifested, instructing us to repudiate ungodliness and worldly desires and to live with soundness of mind and righteousness and godly devotion."

    1 Pet. 2:17: "Have love for the whole association of brothers."

    *** w81 5/1 pp. 30-31 Questions from Readers ***

    Questions from Readers

    Since the word "organization" does not occur in the Bible, even in its original languages, what right do we have to say that God has an organization or to speak of God’s organization?

    A modern Hebrew word for "organization" is the noun ir·gun´. It is drawn from the Hebrew verb e·rag´, which means "to arrange in line," as well as "to follow." Correspondingly, an organization is an arrangement of things. (For an example of this, one can refer to "Things in Which It Is Impossible for God to Lie," chapter 17, paragraph 28, in the Hebrew edition.)

    The Hebrew language has another word equivalent for "organization," namely, histadruth´. This word is based upon a word that is found in the original Hebrew Scriptures. The basic or key letters in the word histadruth´ are s and d and r. With these three consonants is built up the Hebrew verb sadar´, which means, basically, "to arrange in order," thus producing an arrangement. The reflexive form of the verb sadar´ serves as the basis for the noun histadruth´, which means "organization."

    Although we do not find this word in the inspired Hebrew Scriptures, we do find the related Hebrew noun seder in Job 10:22. There this noun is used in the plural number, being spelled s`darim´. The English Revised Version renders Job 10:22 as follows: "A land of thick darkness, as darkness itself; A land of the shadow of death, without any order [s`darim´], And where the light is as darkness." (Also, Authorized Version; Young’s Literal Translation.) The New World Translation here reads: "To the land of obscurity like gloom, of deep shadow and disorder [lo s`darim´], where it beams no more than gloom does." (Also, Rotherham’s The Emphasised Bible.) Disorder, without any order, here would mean a lack of arrangement, a disorganized state.

    To this day the Jews use the word seder. A seder is part of the Jewish Mishnah. Under the word "Mishna," M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopædia says: "The Mishnah is divided into six parts (. . . , Sedarim, arrangements), which contain 62 treatises . . . and 514 chapters . . . The latter, again, are divided into numbered sections."

    So in the original Hebrew Bible the word for "order" or "arrangement" is to be found. Emphasizing the needs for order and arrangement in the Christian congregation, the apostle Paul wrote to the Christians in Corinth: "For God is not a God of confusion, but of peace; as in all the churches of the saints. But let all things be done decently and in order [Hebrew translations: s`darim´ n`khonim´]." (1 Cor. 14:33, 40, English Revised Version; Authorized Version) This apostolic counsel of the first century applies with equal force today to all congregations of the Christian witnesses of Jehovah. The apostle Paul wrote in the common Greek of the day, and the Greek word for "organization" is or·gan´o·sis. The root for this word is er´gon, a word meaning "work" that is found repeatedly in the Christian Greek Scriptures.

    All things considered in the light of the Scriptures, it is straining the point to argue that God has no organization in view of the fact that the original words meaning "organization" in ancient languages do not occur in the inspired Hebrew and Greek Scriptures. In everything God demonstrates that he has the ability to organize. What would happen if he did not organize his obedient creatures? As a structure an organization is a body of intelligent persons who are brought together and arranged so as to work peacefully and harmoniously together in carrying out a common purpose, the purpose of the organizer.

    In line with this fact, God is repeatedly called "Jehovah of armies." An army is an organized body of troops. So, in support of the truth that God has an organization, we read the following exhortation addressed to his organization: "Bless Jehovah, O you angels of his, mighty in power, carrying out his word, by listening to the voice of his word. Bless Jehovah, all you armies of his, you ministers of his, doing his will. Bless Jehovah, all you his works, in all places of his domination." (Ps. 103:20-22) Jehovah had an organization of heavenly spirit creatures before ever he created our earth and put man upon it.

    Against various backgrounds God uses figures of speech to refer to his organization. The first case of this is in Genesis 3:15, where God speaks of his celestial spiritual organization as "the woman," in opposition to "the serpent," a figure of speech denoting Satan the Devil. (Compare Genesis 3:14; Revelation 12:9.) This rebel against God has imitated him and built up an organization against God’s organization, God’s figurative "woman."

  • jstalin
    jstalin

    Who was on the governing body between ~50 ACE and 1874 ACE?

  • xjwms
    xjwms

    Blondie

    Does that prove that it is Jehovah's Organazation?

  • badboy
    badboy

    WHAT IS ACE?

  • blondie
    blondie

    Hey, xjwms, I'm not proving anything. Just providing the info that these elders might use. That's where you start. I think it is important that Goldminer do as much research he can himself based on what the WTS teaches. What do they use for "proof" and what other information is out thre that does not agree.

    He has to do he work, sounds like he has. Why don't you tell us what you have, Goldminer, so we don't re-invent the wheel.

    Blondie

  • xjwms
    xjwms

    Blondie...

    you are doing a good job...(as always)

    when I NEED info.... you're the one

    NOW, ... where in the bible is the word .....THEOCRACY ?????

  • blondie
    blondie

    w85 3/15 p. 10 Working With the Organizer of All the Universe ***

    2

    Today, that may seem strange, since the word "organization" is used regularly among Jehovah’s Witnesses, who cherish their privilege of working with the Organizer of the universe. (1 Corinthians 3:5-9) The word "organization" is drawn from the Greek term or´ga·non. (NOTE WHILE THEY USE A SCRIPTURE IN FRONT OF THIS STATEMENT THIS WORD IS NOT IN THE BIBLE) Among other things, it signifies an instrument or implement with which work is accomplished. It appears in the Septuagint Version a number of times and is used to refer to a musical instrument, such as David’s harp. The root of this word is er´gon, a noun meaning "work." So an organization is an arrangement of things put in force to get something done or worked out in the best way possible and with the least expenditure of time and energy.

    ***

    w85 3/15 pp. 10-12 Working With the Organizer of All the Universe ***

    Early

    Views of Organization

    3

    Years ago, however, the Bible Students had some difficulty in applying the word "organization." For instance, in the Watch Tower issue of March 1883, it was stated:

    "But, though it is impossible for the natural man to see our organization, because he cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God, we trust that you can see that the true Church is most effectually organized, and is in the best possible working order. . . . We have unbounded faith in our Captain; and this perfect organization, invisible to the world, marches on to certain and glorious victory."

    4

    However, the Watch Tower issue of December 1, 1894, said:

    "But as that work of organizing the church of the new Gospel dispensation was no part of the harvest work of the old Jewish dispensation, so the present harvest work or reaping of the Gospel dispensation is also separate and distinct from the work of the new Millennial dispensation now drawing on. . . . It is plain that the forming of a visible organization of such gathered out ones would be out of harmony with the spirit of the divine plan; and if done would seem to indicate on the part of the church a desire to conform to the now popular idea of organization or confederacy. (See Isa. 8:12) The work now is not organization, but division, just as it was in the Jewish harvest proper. (Matt. 10:34-36) . . .

    "While, therefore, we do not esteem a visible organization of the gathered ones to be a part of the Lord’s plan in the harvest work, as though we expected as an organization to abide here for another age, we do esteem it to be his will that those that love the Lord should speak often one to another of their common hopes and joys, or trials and perplexities, communing together concerning the precious things of his Word."

    5

    So the Christian congregation was not then considered to be an organization. But it was thought well to set in order the congregation, or ecclesia. For example, Study V of the book The New Creation, published in 1904, was entitled "The Organization of the New Creation" and opens by saying: "As the New Creation will not reach its perfection or completion until the First Resurrection, so its organization will be completed only then. The temple figure illustrates this: as living stones we are now called, or invited to places in the glorious temple."

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