Posts by slimboyfat

169

Are the statistics out yet?

by slimboyfat in

isn’t it about time they released the report for the service year?

or have they stopped publishing it?

did they released selected figures at the annual meeting as they usually do, such as the memorial attendance or record number of pioneers?

slimboyfat

There's always different reasons for numbers. Some years ago JWs we're growing in Norway. Reason many JWs moved to Norway cause there was more job opportunities. Puerto Rico was other way around. Many moved to mainland and numbers of JWs was staggering. Either way you cut things. Only reason watchtower is not dropping massively in numbers are the strict DF rules. Remove DF arrangements and oh boy the drop they gonna have.

1. Other religious adherents move around too, this is hardly unique to JWs. (Hundreds of thousands of Polish Catholics moved to the UK in the past 20 years, for example)

2. A JW who moves to Norway, Puerto Rico etc., by definition has moved away from somewhere else. So while they are added to the Norway or Puerto Rico count, they are subtracted from the count in whatever country they came from.

Movement between countries, obviously, is no explanation for the growth in JW numbers worldwide, overall, unless we posit extra terrestrials.

Edit because I’ve run out of posts:

I don’t know any religious group that defines membership as attendance. Can you give an example? It’s not true of the groups I am familiar with. In fact many groups, such as Adventists and Catholics, maintain separate datasets for membership and attendance, precisely because they are not the same thing. Others don’t regularly publish attendance figures (though these may be gathered internally) such as the Church of Scotland which only publishes membership statistics not attendance numbers. When independent counts of attendance are conducted (see the work of Peter Brierley) they show that attendance at Church of Scotland churches is well under half the membership count.

I don’t know where you are coming from with this mistaken assumption that other groups count attendees as members.

169

Are the statistics out yet?

by slimboyfat in

isn’t it about time they released the report for the service year?

or have they stopped publishing it?

did they released selected figures at the annual meeting as they usually do, such as the memorial attendance or record number of pioneers?

slimboyfat

Have you got any explanation why the New Zealand census confirms that JWs are growing compared with other Christian groups? Or why censuses in general produce higher JW figures than the annual report, and have done for decades?

As I mentioned, even if inclined to reject Watchtower figures altogether (not a reasonable position in any case) census returns alone show that JWs have better growth than most other groups, and in fact most other groups are declining rapidly.

As I recall your argument (feel free to provide a link) it leans heavily on the fact that the publisher number includes unbaptised publishers as well as baptised JWs. But as everyone knows, JWs have always done this, it is nothing new. You didn’t give any compelling reason why this measure would give an increased rate of growth for any length of time. Plus, as I pointed out above, if somehow it did produce an inflated measure of growth over time the publisher count would drift above other measures of membership. This has not happened, as census returns show.

169

Are the statistics out yet?

by slimboyfat in

isn’t it about time they released the report for the service year?

or have they stopped publishing it?

did they released selected figures at the annual meeting as they usually do, such as the memorial attendance or record number of pioneers?

slimboyfat

As I explained last year Jeffro, it’s simply impossible to inflate the “growth rate” for long periods of time without the two measure drifting apart from one another. If the growth rate was consistently overstated for many years you would end up with JWs claiming a lot more members than other measures produce. This has not happened, ever.

Or look at it another way, and ignore Watchtower figures altogether and what do we find? As with the latest New Zealand data, they show that JWs are growing while almost all other Christian groups are declining. The only other Christian group with any significant growth in New Zealand is the Seventh-day Adventists. The Baptists are remaining about level, and most other groups are declining heavily. These data are derived without looking at Watchtower’s own figures at all.

Plus there are aspects of the Watchtower report that are likely to be highly accurate, such as number of congregations, which can be independently verified, and the number of baptisms, which is likely to be accurately recorded, and is not subject to change in definition of what “baptism” means.

Your only argument boils down to the claim that the definition of “publisher” this year may be a bit more liberal than the definition of “publisher” last year, and granted in some individual years this is probably the case, such as when the 15 minute rule was introduced in the early 2000s. Over the long term, however, the number of members that JWs claim remains much lower than the number of self identified JWs in national censuses, and often by significant amounts. Some countries, especially in South America, have close to double the number self identified JWs compared with the Watchtower “publisher” count. This is in stark contrast with Mormons who often claim twice, three times, even four times as many members in their official count compared with census results.

17

Research project: A study designed to explore the experience of leaving the Jehovah’s Witnesses

by Researcher2023 in

jw
friends

as part of a psychology msc research project, i am looking for participants to take part in a study designed to explore the experience of leaving the jehovah’s witnesses.. former witnesses who were raised in the organisation will be asked a few questions about their reasons for leaving, their experience of leaving, and how their life has changed since leaving.. taking part involves completing an interview over the internet.

according to research needs, the number of questions asked in each interview may vary.

the interview will take between 5 – 90 minutes depending on the questions asked and the level of detail you wish to provide.. your participation will remain confidential and anonymous, and it is completely voluntary so that you may withdraw at any time up to two weeks after the interview.

slimboyfat

A new article related to this topic just published

Luther, R. (2022). What Happens to Those Who Exit Jehovah’s Witnesses: An Investigation of the Impact of Shunning. Pastoral Psychology, 1-16.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11089-022-01051-x

40

Is it Logical To Beleive In A Creator - GOD ? In This Scientific Age ?

by smiddy3 in

jw
friends

i don`t think so .

hasn`t science ,astronomy ,time , .....proven it an illogical beleif ?.

with the information about this solar system and it`s planets ,other stars and their planets that we have information about ,and the fact that no god has ever revealed him/her self in any shape or form 'there is no evidence that a creator / god has ever existed.. except in the minds of humans who want to control a section of humanity .. the fact that religions rely on "you have to have faith" to beleive in a god ,surely is a cop out.. i look forward to your comments .. and a happy new year to you all..

slimboyfat

What I mean by saying that God is not a thing is that he cannot be compared with things in the world. He is not different in terms of being older, wiser, bigger, or any other comparison with humans or other beings. He is different entirely so that comparisons are not possible. The language of creation or beginning does not apply to God, that’s a misunderstanding about what the concept of God is.

40

Is it Logical To Beleive In A Creator - GOD ? In This Scientific Age ?

by smiddy3 in

jw
friends

i don`t think so .

hasn`t science ,astronomy ,time , .....proven it an illogical beleif ?.

with the information about this solar system and it`s planets ,other stars and their planets that we have information about ,and the fact that no god has ever revealed him/her self in any shape or form 'there is no evidence that a creator / god has ever existed.. except in the minds of humans who want to control a section of humanity .. the fact that religions rely on "you have to have faith" to beleive in a god ,surely is a cop out.. i look forward to your comments .. and a happy new year to you all..

slimboyfat

The question of course that we are all avoiding comes down to if there was nothing to begin with and GOD decided to create the universe and us on earth where did he ? come from ?

This question assumes that God is like a being in the universe that requires an explanation. But the whole point of “God” is that he is outside time and space and is self existent. The question “where did God come from?” sounds like a question about God, but in effect all the question really means is that the person asking it has ruled out the possibility that God exists from the start. So when a person says “where did God come from?” what this really means is “I don’t believe a self existent being can exist”. That’s a position one is free to take, but it doesn’t help to settle the question of whether there is a God.

If I say Argentina have the best football team, you could ask: “which country is better at football than Argentina”? But all you are really doing is disputing the assertion that Argentina is the best team. Similarly when somebody says: “where did God come from, or who created God?” all they are really saying is, “I don’t believe in God”, nothing more.

11

Why Do JW`s still use the Name Jehovah ,when they admitted in the Aid Book that it is not the correct pronunciation of his name ?

by smiddy3 in

isn`t that an admittion that they don`t have the "truth" ?

about god ?.

slimboyfat

They usually make the point that the pronunciation is uncertain. Even if they adopted Yahweh it might be “wrong”. More recently, they have pointed to George Buchanan who argues for a pronunciation much closer to Jehovah than Yahweh. As in previous discussions, I question what “wrong” means, given that names are pronounced differently in different languages and at different times. It likely that even during Bible times there were differences in how names were pronounced over times, including the divine name. The Samaritans said Yahweh whereas second temple Jews said Yaho.

40

Is it Logical To Beleive In A Creator - GOD ? In This Scientific Age ?

by smiddy3 in

jw
friends

i don`t think so .

hasn`t science ,astronomy ,time , .....proven it an illogical beleif ?.

with the information about this solar system and it`s planets ,other stars and their planets that we have information about ,and the fact that no god has ever revealed him/her self in any shape or form 'there is no evidence that a creator / god has ever existed.. except in the minds of humans who want to control a section of humanity .. the fact that religions rely on "you have to have faith" to beleive in a god ,surely is a cop out.. i look forward to your comments .. and a happy new year to you all..

slimboyfat

Yes, except that God isn’t a “thing”, which is what makes God a better explanation. What I mean is that God isn’t an item inside this existence that requires explanation.

In some ways that either makes sense or it doesn’t. To me it makes more sense because it allows for intention outside of the thing (the universe, existence) that seems to require explanation. Otherwise we are just left with existence without anything outside and without explanation. In discussing these things we may be at the edges, or beyond, what humans can understand. But again, the very fact we seem to be able to have this conversation is one of the things that suggest to me that our universe, and our ability to perceive it, presumably with some accuracy, point to intention behind our existence.

40

Is it Logical To Beleive In A Creator - GOD ? In This Scientific Age ?

by smiddy3 in

jw
friends

i don`t think so .

hasn`t science ,astronomy ,time , .....proven it an illogical beleif ?.

with the information about this solar system and it`s planets ,other stars and their planets that we have information about ,and the fact that no god has ever revealed him/her self in any shape or form 'there is no evidence that a creator / god has ever existed.. except in the minds of humans who want to control a section of humanity .. the fact that religions rely on "you have to have faith" to beleive in a god ,surely is a cop out.. i look forward to your comments .. and a happy new year to you all..

slimboyfat

Lawrence Krauss’s version of “nothing” is not very nothingy, because it still assumes physical properties and laws at the beginning. Why is there anything at all? He doesn’t really address the philosophical question. Any way that you look at it, existence is miraculous. Either everything that exists arose by itself without any external cause, or a being outside of time and space brought the universe into existence. Either option is miraculous, in the sense that it is outside physical cause and effect. As somebody said, materialists are in effect asking for “just one miracle”, to start us off, and inorder to explain the rest in natural terms. Which points to the fact that, even if we can account for every event in the universe in terms of natural processes, the very fact that the universe (or anything, if the universe is a subset of a larger physical reality) exists at all is not amenable to an explanation within that same framework. To me it makes most sense to think that existence, and human consciousness, are the result of the intention of a supreme being who is outside of time and space.

40

Is it Logical To Beleive In A Creator - GOD ? In This Scientific Age ?

by smiddy3 in

jw
friends

i don`t think so .

hasn`t science ,astronomy ,time , .....proven it an illogical beleif ?.

with the information about this solar system and it`s planets ,other stars and their planets that we have information about ,and the fact that no god has ever revealed him/her self in any shape or form 'there is no evidence that a creator / god has ever existed.. except in the minds of humans who want to control a section of humanity .. the fact that religions rely on "you have to have faith" to beleive in a god ,surely is a cop out.. i look forward to your comments .. and a happy new year to you all..

slimboyfat

The more science discovers about the functioning of the brain, the more mysterious consciousness seems and the more it calls for an explanation. How does consciousness arise? As neuroscience advances the clearer it becomes that a purely materialist conception of reality doesn’t offer a satisfying solution. Another discovery that points to the existence of reality beyond matter is the discovery of physicists that subjectivity plays a part in the constitution of reality itself. In terms of evolutionary theory, philosopher Alvin Plantinga argues that our ability to understand the world around us accurately implies intention behind the process that has given us life. In these and other ways, I think science has tended to support the view of the majority of humans that a superior intelligence, outside of the material universe and time, is responsible for the world and for humans who are able to observe and make sense of it.