Posts by slimboyfat

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

slimboyfat

So why did you say:

but if it did happen how come there is no account of such a seven-year gap in the NB Chronicles?

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

slimboyfat

I thought the Watchtower position was that Nebuchadnezzar did go mad for seven years but that this also pictured a larger fulfilment spanning centuries. Are you saying that Nebuchadnezzar never really went mad at all?

11530

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars

by Newly Enlightened in

original reddit post (removed).

slimboyfat

Absolutely - he obviously hates the ‘work’ that he does. He detests having to watch those stupid Watchtower videos and he can’t stand having to write about them and present it as if he cares about it. But he’s completely trapped. On one level of course he will have been delighted about duping all the extra patrons into sending him their money, but at the same time his heart must have sank as he realised that it means he has to keep producing these utterly vacuous videos. He would much rather be doing something - anything - else. He would have been very happy to wind down his channel to the bare minimum while still raking in Patreon money from his remaining supporters for as long as they are stupid enough to keep sending money to him. With the unexpected success of his recruitment drive, now he’s got to at least pretend to put renewed effort into his YouTube channel. The prospect of being stuck doing this for the foreseeable future must fill him with absolute dread. He obviously despises his own followers now too because nobody with their wits about them has hung around. He has cornered the market in ignorant and/or unstable individuals, and now he has to keep regular Zoom calls and WhatsApp message with the ‘cream’ of that crop. The vast majority of his followers at this point must either be oblivious to the facts, and his own confession livestream, or they share his nihilistic and cynical outlook, or they have some self interested reason for hanging around, such as his employees, or people hoping to plug a book or their own YouTube channel.

31

A year since I have been back

by Lee Marsh in

jw
friends

a year ago i came back to jwd.

the 2 years before that.

when covid stated, i was diagnosed with colon cancer.

slimboyfat

Good that you’ve had successful treatment Lady Lee, may your better health continue. 👍

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

slimboyfat

Thanks for the response, Fisherman, but I am not sure you have solved the problem so much as simply restated it. I know they think the 70 years at Babylon is a definite 70 years period, but the 70 years for Tyre is a shorter period. I know that’s their take, but what I’m asking for is a justification for that position. The text simply says Tyre will be forgotten for 70 years, not part of 70 years. If that “represents” a shorter period than literal 70 years, then why not the other 70 years too? What’s the justification for saying one must be exactly 70 years, but the other 70 years doesn’t?

Yeah dozy the date change from 606 to 607BCE was so strange and so blatant that, on some level, I didn’t even believe it could be true. But it does seem as simple as that - they moved it back a year to account for the absence of year zero and still keep the 1914 date. The honest thing to do would have been to move 1914 forward one year to 1915 (is that right?) but that would have spoiled the coincidence of World War One beginning on their favoured date. Does scholar have an answer for that one?

Another problem is, if Satan was cast down from heaven in September/October 1914, then how come World War One began in August already?

Plus there was something (I forget the details) about the year 537BCE saying that events were supposed to occur within a year but there is nothing in the Bible that says it was within a year. They just assume it was not longer than a year in order to make the prophecy fit. But why not two, or three, or four years? Other than it spoils the chronology.

Plus they claim that 537BCE is an absolute fixed date and that 70 years must be counted back from then to 607BCE. But there’s no good reason why, if you are adamant about keeping the literal 70 year period, you couldn’t do it the other way round and say that 586BCE is the absolute fixed date and count 70 years forward from that to the other date at 516BCE instead.

Plus as Sanchy said, how do we even know that Daniel 4 is meant to be interpreted as a centuries long chronological prophecy anyway? It is a stretch to say the least.

Plus the fact that 1914 is no longer within anybody’s reasonable conception of a single generation now. It’s ridiculous.

Until the 1990s, I think many JWs had the attitude that the whole 1914 chronology thing seemed like a bit of a leap in terms of proving it from the Bible, but on the other hand Bible Students did identify the year 1914 decades before World War One started that year. Therefore, was the reasoning at the time, Jehovah probably helped the Bible Students reach the 1914 date from the Bible somehow, and events that year proved them correct. But the further back in time 1914 recedes, the less important it seems, and the idea of stretching the “lasts days” from that date becomes increasingly incredible.

21

Joined an online meeting incognito

by joey jojo in

got a link for a zoom meeting and thought id share my experience about the mid-week meeting.. guessing about 100 - 120 in cong.. 50 on zoom, only 8 with cameras on - all elderly.

watching from a detached point of view it's so obvious at how it is nothing but a glorified sales meeting, all designed to promote the org.

inspirational videos about how everyone can/ should do more to help with projects, in particular how to look after the kingdom hall, complete with bar charts showing levels of achievement to aspire to.. interestingly, tonights book study is about alcohol..

slimboyfat

How could you tell how many people were in the Kingdom Hall. Do they give you a view of the whole hall on the Zoom video?

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

slimboyfat

I did read The Gentile Times Reconsidered, and appreciated the level of detail in it, but I can’t say I ever came to terms with all the technical arguments or understood them properly. I enjoyed reading about the background and history of interpretation more than the parts about ancient tablets and astronomical dates.

For me, I gave up on the whole 607BCE/1914CE idea one day when sitting in the book study group and one of the chapters of the Isaiah book dealt with the 70 years prophecy with respect to Tyre. It made the brief comment that in this case the 70 years was not a full 70 years. But if that 70 years wasn’t a “full 70 years”, then why does the other 70 years have to be a full 70 years? It didn’t make any sense. So I gave up trying to work it out anything about tablets and astronomical dates because the whole idea was a nonstarter.

Just out of curiosity scholar, have you got an apologetic answer for that one? Why should we take the 70 years literally in one case but not the other? Here is the relevant quote from the Isaiah book:

Isaiah goes on to prophesy: “It must occur in that day that Tyre must be forgotten seventy years, the same as the days of one king.” (Isaiah 23:15a) Following the destruction of the mainland city by the Babylonians, the island-city of Tyre will “be forgotten.” True to the prophecy, for the duration of “one king”—the Babylonian Empire—the island-city of Tyre will not be an important financial power. Jehovah, through Jeremiah, includes Tyre among the nations that will be singled out to drink the wine of His rage. He says: “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8–17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble. What will then happen to Tyre?
[Isaiah’s Prophecy—Light for All Mankind I p. 253-254]

14

Voting thumbs up

by peacefulpete in

is anyone else having problem giving a thumbs up?

it has been happening for a long time.

i vote up , it appears, then disappears when i return to page.

slimboyfat

It could be a mistake or malfunction in your case. Who knows? In my case I was told my thumbs were gone and they were.

14

Voting thumbs up

by peacefulpete in

is anyone else having problem giving a thumbs up?

it has been happening for a long time.

i vote up , it appears, then disappears when i return to page.

slimboyfat

Simon removed my up and down thumbs years ago when I gave a downvote to a post that said (to my best recollection, because it was ages ago) it was great Dawkins had survived a stroke because it means he can carry on telling theists that they are wrong. Apparently Simon interpreted that to mean I was against Dawkins being alive and that I didn’t deserve any more votes on the forum because of that. Perhaps you made a similar egregious error in your history and that’s why you lost your up and down thumbs too. 🤔

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

slimboyfat

For newbies, who was Carl Olof Jonsson?

He was a JW in Sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with Watchtower that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE, but instead place the event 20 years later. The reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for JW chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the Gentile Times, and the beginning of the Last Days, as JWs understand it. Jonsson decided to research the subject so he could go back to the householder and defend the 607 BCE date, but the more he researched, the more he realised that the 607 BCE date was simply wrong, not only by secular history, but also in terms of the Bible’s own chronology. Jonsson carefully researched the topic over years, consulting many experts, and compiled all his research into a detailed report that he sent to the world headquarters of JWs in Brooklyn. He hoped that when the Governing Body saw the evidence they would change their chronology. Instead of accepting the evidence the Governing Body dug its heels in and kept the chronology. Raymond Franz was compiling the Aid book at the time and included a lengthy entry on chronology, which was intended to refute Jonsson’s research by undermining confidence in secular chronology, but without making reference to Jonsson’s work directly. Raymond Franz later expressed regret that he played a part in rejecting the evidence that Jonsson had sent.

Instead of being thanked for his research and the sincerity of his appeal to the Governing Body, Jonsson was marginalised and eventually excluded from his religious community. He was accused of trying to promote sects. In reality Jonsson had shared his research with people he considered friends because he thought the information was important and he hoped for reasonable dialogue. Once outside the religion, Jonsson published his research as a book titled The Gentile Reconsidered: Have Jehovah’s Witnesses Been Wrong All Along About 607 BCE? Raymond Franz helped Jonsson publish and distribute this book that refuted the Watchtower date he had once defended. Jonsson went on to publish a second book, with his friend Rud Persson (pseudonym Wolfgang Herbst), titled The Sign of the Last Days - When? which, among other things, proved that Watchtower was wrong about there being an increase in earthquakes during the 20th century. This book apparently had some impact because Watchtower stopped making specific claims about an increase in earthquakes after this book was published. However Watchtower still maintains, contrary to Jonsson’s evidence, that wars, diseases, and famines typify our era in particular.

In the 1980s and 1990s a Norwegian JW named Rolf Furuli began circulating his own research which he claimed supported Watchtower chronology and refuted Jonsson’s research. Jonsson made some responses to Furuli generally pointing out that experts in ancient history did not accept his arguments based on readings from ancient sources in Akkadian and other ancient languages that are difficult to learn and interpret. Watchtower used some of the material Furuli compiled to restate their support for their 607 BCE date in a couple of Watchtower articles in 2011. Furuli was later disfellowshipped for disagreeing with the Governing Body on other matters in 2020 but still maintained that Watchtower chronology was accurate.

It had been said that Carl Olof Jonsson was in poor health for a number years and only kept in touch with a few friends including Rud Persson. News now arrives that Carl Olof Jonsson died on the 17th April 2023.

Watchtower faced a crossroads in the 1970s when it could have chosen to accept the detailed evidence Jonsson provided showing that their chronology had a faulty basis. They could have chosen to abandon 1914 at that stage and focus on other core beliefs instead, such as the identity of God and Jesus, the hope for paradise on earth, and peaceable good living until it arrives. Instead they chose to double down on their faulty chronology and crack down on dissenters. The result is that 1914 date weighs ever heavier round their necks as a growing reminder of their own fallibility with each passing year. Open discussion on Bible chronology, and other matters, remains unwelcome in the religion.

No doubt there may be details I got wrong in the above summary and I would welcome corrections.