Didn’t the Jewish Talmud say Jesus performed miracles using God’s name? Coptic texts depict Jesus as using various forms of the divine name including Yaho. If the Shem Tob version of Matthew reflects an original Hebrew version then doesn’t Jesus use God's name in that version too? When Jesus read from the scroll of Isaiah wouldn’t he have used the divine name when it occurs in the text? Copies of the Old Testament in Jesus’ day in Hebrew and Greek used forms of the divine name. Later Christian versions of the Old Testament replace the divine name with Lord. Plus Jesus prayed “let your name be sanctified”, and “I have made made your name known”. Could any Jew have talked about the “name of God” without having the Tetragrammaton in mind? The idea that Jews didn’t use God's name in Jesus’ day is out of date and has little to support it. So I think there is at least some evidence Jesus used God’s name.
slimboyfat
JoinedPosts by slimboyfat
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36
Firstborn of all Creation - What does it refer too?
by JW Answers inthe jehovah's witnesses believe the title given to the lord jesus as 'firstborn' is in reference to himself being created.
however as we study the scriptures we can see that it has a greater meaning than being created..
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36
Firstborn of all Creation - What does it refer too?
by JW Answers inthe jehovah's witnesses believe the title given to the lord jesus as 'firstborn' is in reference to himself being created.
however as we study the scriptures we can see that it has a greater meaning than being created..
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slimboyfat
I agree that the way the early church spoke about, to and related to Jesus is different than JWs. Isn’t this mostly accounted for by the fact that many in the early church knew Jesus personally or had an encounter with the resurrected Jesus as Paul did? For example Stephen spoke directly to God and Jesus when he saw them in a vision. I dare say if a JW saw Jesus at the right hand of God they would have no problem speaking to him and addressing him Lord too.
The JW practice of addressing songs and prayers to the Father does seem to follow the biblical pattern and instruction.
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36
Firstborn of all Creation - What does it refer too?
by JW Answers inthe jehovah's witnesses believe the title given to the lord jesus as 'firstborn' is in reference to himself being created.
however as we study the scriptures we can see that it has a greater meaning than being created..
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slimboyfat
TI used to spend a lot of time debating the Trinity with evangelicals!
The New Testament is much closer to a JW understanding of who Jesus is than the Trinitarian churches.
The New Testament is pretty clear and consistent that Jesus is a created being who has been elevated by God to the highest position in the universe.
Jesus is the firstborn of creation, just as he is the firstborn from the dead (in the same passage) the first one to be resurrected to immortality.
Just some of the scriptures that show this include (all quotes from the English Standard Version, emphases mine):
Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.
John 6:57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me.
Gal 4:14 and though my condition was a trial to you, you did not scorn or despise me, but received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus.
1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
Phil 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
1 Cor 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
Of course Trinitarians have “answers” for all these verses, and their own “proof texts” too. But what is striking is how straightforward a non-Trinitarian reading of the New Testament is compared with the gymnastics of Trinitarian interpretations.
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Joke Sharing Thread
by Vanderhoven7 ingot a good joke or two?
why not share them.
here is a fun one.. retirement can be fun.
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slimboyfat
I like the shellfish one.
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2018 Branch Organization Manual!
by Atlantis injust in case anybody needed this.. 2018 branch organization manual.
https://we.tl/t-vya6lknwtn.
atlantis!.
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slimboyfat
Thank you Atlantis, lots of interesting points.
12. The appointment as a member of the Branch Committee or to a posi- tion of oversight in the branch organization is not for any specified period of time. Having in mind the advance- ment of the Kingdom work, the Branch Committee may at any time recommend to the Governing Body a new appoint- ment, a removal, or the reassignment of individuals.
It's interesting to consider the psychological effect of this policy statement. I suspect it tends to ensure extreme loyalty from branch committee members for fear of losing their position. Plus interesting to compare it with the GB’s status which is a position for life. How might the GB act differently if their positions were viewed as temporary and subject to review.
15. First Five Years at Bethel: A person who comes to Bethel should be in good health. He should have his personal affairs arranged so that he is able to devote himself to his Bethel service within the framework of the established arrangement for support of members of the Worldwide Order, such as personal time away, health care, and so forth. He should be physically, mentally, and circumstantially able to adjust to Bethel and to give consistent attention to his work assignment. In the case of a married couple, the above would apply to each mate individually. Each should enjoy good health and be able to shoulder his or her own responsibility as a member of the Bethel family.
Repetition for emphasis? We really don’t want to pay any health costs!
In the case of disfellowshipping, the wrongdoer should be given the usual seven days to make this appeal, even though he would normally leave Beth- el on the day the original judicial com- mittee advises him of the decision to disfellowship. No announcement of the disfellowshipping should be made until seven days have elapsed since the ap- peal was handled.-kslO 8:1-20.
If I understand this correctly a DFed person has to leave bethel immediately and not wait for the result of an appeal. No mention is made of what happens if the appeal is successful. This is probably an indication of how rare it is for an appeal to result in a decision to disfellowship being overturned. -
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Calling Cofty and others regarding evolution
by dubstepped inso i have started down the path of trying to understand evolution, and to get the linear lies that the jws planted in my head out of it.
i bought an audiobook called "evolution: what the fossils say and why it matters" by donald prothero.
i heard it recommended on an atheist podcast that i listened to.
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slimboyfat
Consciousness tends to be a word we use for humans and a few other animals that display some similar patterns of thought.
Awareness on the other hand is much broader and is applied to creatures that appear to behave on instinct and don’t seem to reflect. Like I said above, ants and spiders, for example are commonly thought to be “aware” in some reduced sense, but not conscious as such.
So pansychists tend to attribute a low level sense of awareness to all matter, far beneath the level we would describe as conscious.
How does methodological naturalism offer evidence against the idea that awareness is fundamental to matter?
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Calling Cofty and others regarding evolution
by dubstepped inso i have started down the path of trying to understand evolution, and to get the linear lies that the jws planted in my head out of it.
i bought an audiobook called "evolution: what the fossils say and why it matters" by donald prothero.
i heard it recommended on an atheist podcast that i listened to.
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slimboyfat
Will be interesting to see how your comments here date as panpsychism gains momentum.
And it is an exaggeration to say pansychists believe rocks are conscious. Unless you consider insects “conscious” for example. What panpsychists argue is that awareness is fundamental to all matter so that it varies in degree across a spectrum from human consciousness down to other animals, and whatever experience invertebrates have, down to plants, rocks and other objects, which may have very low levels of awareness.
There may be little or no empirical evidence for panpsychism. But then, there is also little or no empirical evidence that can be offered for the common materialist conception of the world either. These are philosophical conceptions for making sense of the world and how it works. Materialism is just the common sense, or taken for granted assumption commonly made about reality in our particular historical circumstances, and therefore highly susceptible to revision.
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"They are so keen, they need to be locked up for the first 6 months!"
by stuckinarut2 indo we all remember that expression when we were jws?.
someone new would "come into the truth", and be so enthusiastic and keen, that we would all joke about "locking them up for the first 6 months because they would preach to everyone".
jws thought that the passion for "learning the truth" was the issue.
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slimboyfat
Yes that used to be an expression to describe enthusiastic new people in the truth. But it’s a long time since I heard it used, I guess for two main reasons: 1) no new converts and 2) no enthusiasm.
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7
Apostasy film just got nimonated for a BAFTA.
by Xanthippe init didn't win but it was nominated in the outstanding debut film category!
wow!.
they showed a clip and gave a very short explanation of the plot.
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slimboyfat
It was pretty outstanding for a directorial debut.
If he goes on to produce more famous films, then more people might come back to this one for years to come.
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Why do Jehovah's Witness members incriminate themselves in judicial meeting?
by RULES & REGULATIONS inwhy do jehovah's witness members incriminate themselves to any judicial process?
how can three elders conduct a judicial meeting with a 15-year-old teenage girl who supposedly was rumored to fornicate, took drugs or was drunk from drinking alcohol?
can she or the parents refuse to answer any questions?.
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slimboyfat
I think one major reason people confess, that I don’t think has been mentioned, is that people fear the judicial committee already have evidence against them, and that if they don’t confess then the lack of confession will be used as proof that they lack repentance.
As I understand it, judicial committees are not up front about what they know. Their opening gambit will be to invite the accused person to confess to anything and everything at the beginning of the proceeding. And anything they don’t mention at the very start, but can be proved later, will be used against them in the decision to disfellowship.
So whether to confess and demonstrate repentance, or deny and hope they don’t have evidence, can present a tricky dilemma.
It's a set up where you can jump one way or the other, only to find out immediately you’ve jumped in the wrong direction.