jwfacts there is a lot of evidence for the divine name in the original New Testament. How else do you explain that at least 3 non-JW scholars have arrived at the same conclusion, citing lots of evidence for the position? I think what you mean is that no New Testament manuscript containing the divine name has yet been recovered. The WT Society acknowledge this. But it's not the only thing to consider. As I pointed out above, the KS nomina sacra form is the earliest attested representation of the divine name in the NT, yet scholars tend to assume Kyrios written in full was original. So apparently early NT manuscripts are not conclusive, no matter which side of the fence you find yourself.
slimboyfat
JoinedPosts by slimboyfat
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332
The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name
by slimboyfat injehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.
but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .
i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.
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332
The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name
by slimboyfat injehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.
but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .
i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.
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slimboyfat
jpw1692 interesting that Shaw also mentions Rastafarians and the Sacred Name movement, along with JWs, to illustrate modern diversity of use of the divine name, comparing it with diversity in ancient times.
Also if JWs are right about the divine name, I'd suggest that the closely related issues surrounding the Trinity and the nature of God are likely to be correct as well.
As JWs never tire of pointing out, names do change in translation, including the name Jesus. This does not make the use of the name in other languages somehow invalid.
Londo111
While there are a few copies of the Septuagint where YHWH was used
Not just a few copies, but in fact every single surviving pre-Christian copy that preserves text including the divine name uses a form of the name rather than Lord.
there is no positive proof that YHWH appeared in the New Testament or that early Christian groups used the divine name. There is conjecture and guesswork by some scholars, but that is not positive evidence that firmly establishes it.
It's not conclusive at this point but it's better than guesswork, and the evidence is mounting. Plus other scholars suggest that Kyrios, written in full, was original, whereas the earliest copies contain nomina sacra abbreviated forms. So whichever form is original - YHWH, Iao, or Kyrios - the original form does not appear in the earliest NT fragments that survive.
cobweb, lemonjuice and steve2 some argue for three syllables, like Nehemiah Gordon, but pronunciation can vary for names over time and in different languages.
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The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name
by slimboyfat injehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.
but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .
i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.
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slimboyfat
Ah when the negative arrives, the Cofty comment inevitably follows shortly after...
Where is your evidence that Jesus using the divine name would have caused an argument? The idea that using the divine name was totally forbidden in that period rests on various false assumptions such as that the LXX had eliminated the name. The evidence from LXX fragments, classical authors, onomastica and other Jewish and Christian sources assembled and analysed in the book The Earliest Non-Mystical Jewish Use of Iao, demonstrates the continued use of forms of the divine name in the first century.
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332
The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name
by slimboyfat injehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.
but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .
i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.
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slimboyfat
Jehovah's Witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections. But the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of Jehovah's name.
I'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of JW events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days. At the end I'll mention a fascinating new book that helps support some of the key claims JWs make about the divine name, and discuss the implications.
1931 - JWs change their name to reflect the growing importance of God's name in their message
1939 - fragments of the early Septuagint (LXX) - Fouad 266 with the divine name in the form of the tetragram are discovered in Egypt
1944 - a few of the fragments containing the tetragram are published by W G Waddell in the Journal of Theological Studies
1948 - realising the significance of this find, the WT Society sent two Gilead missionaries to photograph the rest of the fragments
1950 - the NWT of the New Testament was released using the divine name in the NT partly on the basis of the evidence from papyrus manuscript Fouad 266 and included photographs of the fragments
The NWT was not the first Bible translation to use the divine name in the NT. The translation by Herman Heinfetter and the Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson had used the divine name. And many foreign language Bibles use the divine name in the New Testament. Nevertheless it is fair to describe the NWT as groundbreaking in its treatment of the divine name for a number of reasons:
1. It was the first systematic defence and implementation of the restoration of the divine name to the New Testament.
2. Whereas other translations that use the divine name in the NT are relatively obscure, the NWT has become one of the most popular and ubiquitous modern translations available.
3. The NWT is inextricably linked with "the people for his name" that God has called in the last days.
4. The NWT explicitly drew upon recent LXX findings as supporting the continued use of the divine name into the NT era
5. In the years that followed its publication in 1950 more discoveries and scholarly research supported the NWT's use of the divine name
1953 - Walter Martin publishes his Jehorvah of the Watchtower which ridicules the idea that God's name belongs in the NT
1953 - Patrick Skehan publishes an early fragment of Leviticus in Greek that uses IAW for the divine name and he suggests this was the original form of the divine name in the LXX rather than Kyrios or YHWH
1960 - the compete NWT is released restoring the divine name to both old and new testaments
1963 - a scroll of the Minor Prophets from the Dead Sea containing the tetragram is published by Dominique Barthélemy adding more evidence for the use of the divine name in the LXX
1977 - Bible scholar George Howard publishes article in the Journal of Biblical Literature not only agreeing with JWs that the divine name appeared in the original NT, but supplying additional lines of support and arguing that the removal of the divine name from the NT resulted in confusion between Jesus and Jehovah and later Trinitarian dogma
1978 - The Watchtower proudly promotes the work of George Howard as an answer to critics like Walter Martin
1983 - a Greek fragment of Job from the Oxyrhynchus papyri containing the tetragram is published adding further support
1984 - Bible scholar Albert Pietersma in his essay “Kyrios or Tetragram: A Renewed Quest for the Original New Testament” attempts to refute George Howard by arguing that, contrary to MS evidence, the original LXX used "Lord" instead of the tetragram. Many scholars follow Pietersma’s lead and go back to supporting the traditional view that the early LXX avoided God’s name.
1984 - Jehovah's Witnesses publish the booklet The Divine Name that will Endure Forever setting out the importance of the divine name and its use in all parts of the Bible
1987 - Bible scholar Lloyd Gaston in his book Paul and the Torah supports George Howard’s argument that the divine name appeared in the original NT
2000 - New Testament scholar David Trobisch publishes his book The First Edition of the New Testament in English where he argues in favour of the divine name in original NT writings
2002 - Classical scholar Frank Shaw completes his PhD thesis arguing that the divine name was used by Jews at the turn of the era in non-mystical settings
2003 - Senior scholar of the LXX Emanuel Tov publishes comments stating that he finds Pietersma's argument against the divine name in in the initial LXX unconvincing
2003 - Manichaean scholar Jason BeDuhn praises the NWT as the most accurate modern translation in his book Truth in Translation but argues that the inclusion of the divine name in the NT is a mistake
2011 - yet another fragment of the early LXX is published supporting the use of the tetragram this time from the Psalms
2013 - the revised edition of the NWT reaffirms the importance and use of the divine name in the NT and adds further support
2014 - excellent new book is published on the divine name: The Earliest Non-Mystical Jewish Use of IAW by Frank Shaw adds tremendous detailed support for the use of the divine name among Jews at the turn of the era
The view of JWs that the divine name continued to be used in the first century has been corroborated by various manuscript discoveries over the decades. Their argument that this means the divine name appeared in the original NT has been supported by scholars George Howard, Lloyd Gaston and David Trobisch.
The new book on the divine name by Frank Shaw does not argue dogmatically for the divine name in the NT. That is not the focus of the book. What it does do is masterfully refute many of the contentions of those who have downplayed the importance and relevance of the divine name. It shows that the Greek form of the divine name IAW was used by Jews in and around the first century; that this use was widespread and not confined to mystical contexts; that the early LXX did not eliminate the divine name; and that awareness and use of the divine name continued into the Christian Era. It draws on a tremendous amount of new evidence and gathers together disparate scholarly work in favour of the continued importance of divine name in the period.
Particularly fascinating is the chapter on the use of the IAW form of the divine name in Christian onomastica. These were early lists of names, sometimes described as rudimentary Bible encyclopaedias, copied by early Christians. Crucially these early fragments show that Christians were aware of the divine name and that biblical texts were the source of this knowledge.
Another interesting chapter explores the evidence from classical authors that Jews continued to use the divine name. Plus an entire chapter is devoted to refuting the common, but rather incredible view, of Pietersma and others that the LXX essentially eliminated the divine name with only a few revisionist exceptions (such as all the fragments that have come to light). It's hard to escape the conclusion that religious considerations must be involved in some scholars downplaying the importance of the divine name against the flow of considerable evidence here. Once again Shaw is not dogmatic about the original form of the divine name in the LXX, if it makes sense to even talk about an original form. Instead he notes the fragmentary nature of the historical traces and the evidence for variety of usage in Jewish practice. But Shaw is also clear about the lack of evidence for the traditional view that the early LXX had essentially eliminated the divine name.
https://www.amazon.com/Earliest-Non-Mystical-Contributions-Biblical-Exegesis/dp/9042929782/
All this tends to support some very important distinctive claims of Jehovah's Witnesses. In particular their contention that the divine name was still in use in Jesus’ time and that Christians continued to use the divine name.
For atheists and others who do not regard the Bible as inspired, the question whether Jehovah's Witnesses are right about the original New Testament employing the divine name may be regarded as little more than historical curiosity. Either Jehovah's Witnesses or evangelicals may have egg on their face if it's proved one way or the other, but that's about it.
However, for those who maintain the holy scriptures, it poses a number of deeper questions. The prescient or fortuitous championing of Jehovah's name by Jehovah's Witnesses is as striking as has been the growing scholarly and evidential support for their position. Would almighty God have allowed this group of Christians to champion his name at this crucial time if they did not enjoy his blessing and support?
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My jaw dropping OMG moment at the end of the convention
by UnshackleTheChains inyes folks.
over the past few days i can honestly say the convention was relatively quite good.
most of the talks, videos, symposiums were in line with scripture if you have faith in the bible.
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slimboyfat
The difference is that if a single or disabled brother or sister dreams about fulfilling their sexual desires if circumstances change they are committing no sin. A homosexual who dreams about fulfilling their desires is always committing a sin by the very thought. So the situations are not equivalent.
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My jaw dropping OMG moment at the end of the convention
by UnshackleTheChains inyes folks.
over the past few days i can honestly say the convention was relatively quite good.
most of the talks, videos, symposiums were in line with scripture if you have faith in the bible.
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slimboyfat
Not talking about number of casualties. Talking about the potential of technology to end civilisation that did not exist until the end of WW2 and now makes any future total war existential.
The secular equivalent of the JW argument is the often made observation that if there is a Third World War then the next world war after that will be fought using sticks and stones. Which is optimisic in terms of human survival.
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My jaw dropping OMG moment at the end of the convention
by UnshackleTheChains inyes folks.
over the past few days i can honestly say the convention was relatively quite good.
most of the talks, videos, symposiums were in line with scripture if you have faith in the bible.
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slimboyfat
I don't think so. I think the official JW position now is that gay people are probably born that way but that they should deny themselves.
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How old would Br. Franz be today if he overlapped himself?
by waton in`~39, and ~ 59+ years more to go .
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slimboyfat
Please don't anyone waste any time working out how long an overlapping generation can last. You might as well try to map out the end of a rainbow. When the time comes they'll come up with a new explanation. The sheer futility of the mental exercise involved in taking the proposition at all seriously is just too depressing to contemplate.
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My jaw dropping OMG moment at the end of the convention
by UnshackleTheChains inyes folks.
over the past few days i can honestly say the convention was relatively quite good.
most of the talks, videos, symposiums were in line with scripture if you have faith in the bible.
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slimboyfat
That assumption is included in the assumption that "the prophecy is true".
In as much as, if there is no God, it makes little sense to talk about there being true prophecy.
You can always pull assumptions down into even more basic units ad infinitum. Even the assumption "there is a God" can be broken down. It assumes God can be defined, that he either exists or does not exist, and that humans can find out one way or the other. And so on.
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Lessons learned from the wife of lot drama
by purrpurr inthe video drama shown at the recent comvention was called "the wife of lot".
i noticed some stuble lessons being taught in this soap opera style video.... firstly, all the bad influence comes from women, its the wife and the mother in law whose pushing for more money and a better lifestyle.
while the men remain loyal to god, can't show the men going astray now can we?.
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slimboyfat
The most sinister character was male: the woman's uncle.
Taking off shoes is a nod to oriental culture, but pretty universal these days, I'd have thought.
Subtle? The most striking thing about the sitcom was the appearance of Joey from Friends. Ha! What was that about?
Joking aside.
I wondered what was Brian's position in the congregation? On the one hand, a man with a pioneer wife, and two daughters, if he is not an elder that would raise questions. On the other hand, the way he acted with Br. Williams and Joe, didn't seem like he was an elder. It seemed strangely ambiguous.
One of the things I found interesting was the use of words like "religious" and "conservative" in ways that are mainstream and not distinctive JW usage. For example the daughter's colleagues describe her family as "conservative". Normally JWs might dispute this sort of political categorisation and insist JWs are neither conservative nor liberal they follow the Bible.
Also the free use of the word "religion" when defending JW practice to non JW family. At one time JWs would have avoided describing themselves as religious or JWs as a religion.
And they seemed a bit isolated in the KH. Apart from Joe and Br. Williams did they know anyone?
What got them into JWs in the first place?
Where are his extended family are they JWs?
The obsession with property seems a bit rich coming from a prominent New York property company. Like the scripture says, out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. So it's not surprising that property business comes to mind when they are creating a drama.
Plus if you want to say that secular work is not as important as preaching, you might want to choose a less debateable example than the daughter working on a cure for rare illnesses! Given all the many jobs that add little or nothing to overall human wellbeing, it was an odd choice. Or actually maybe it was intentional, to say no job, no matter how worthy, is as important as being a good JW.
The family that came into the truth was interesting too. It was like a time warp because that's how people became JWs in the 70s, 80s and even 90s, as whole families due to preaching of colleagues or on the doors. But I just don't think it happens much like that any more, not in western countries anyway. People become JWs because of family, longstanding connections, or because they are isolated individuals. Whole families don't tend to join JWs any more.
Plus the reason for them joining was presented as a sort of self-improvement agenda, with Joe becoming more disciplined and family life improving. No mention of Bible prophecy and the last days as a motivating factor at all, which was the main thing that brought whole families in during the 1970s.