Posts by slimboyfat

37

Beards mentioned again in magazine!

by neat blue dog in

aaaaaand .

.. it offers absolutely nothing new.. from questions from readers in the december 2016 study edition watchtower:.

"is it proper for a brother todayto have a beard?in some cultures, a neat beardmay be acceptable and may notdetract from the kingdom mes-sage.

slimboyfat

"Are not considered acceptable" - passive voice. Not considered acceptable by who? And why?

61

Did the flood happen?

by BlackWolf in

so we were talking about noah for our family worship tonight and it ended with a little debate between me and my parents about how the flood was possible.

you know, where did the water come from, how did all the animals fit, etc.

of course it led nowhere and my parents came up with some strange theories like that there was "an expanse of water in the sky" and that's where all the water came from.

slimboyfat

Leolaia argued that to accept the flood you need to reject almost every branch of science.

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/166221/flood?page=2#3077786

57

How do we know JWs are wrong and how do we convince others JWs are wrong: logic versus persuasion

by slimboyfat in

we like to think we are logical and have good reasons for for our beliefs.

no more so than when it comes to our reasons for rejecting the truth claims of jws.

we reject their version of history, such as the date of the fall of jerusalem, because it doesn't agree with the historical evidence.

slimboyfat

We like to think we are logical and have good reasons for for our beliefs. No more so than when it comes to our reasons for rejecting the truth claims of JWs.

We reject their version of history, such as the date of the fall of Jerusalem, because it doesn't agree with the historical evidence. We reject their claim that we are living in the time of the end because there are not more wars, famines, diseases or earthquakes now that at other times in history. We reject their interpretation of the "generation" of Matthew 24 because it doesn't make sense contextually, linguistically, or logically. We reject their version of creationism because the evidence shows that life evolved slowly by natural selection.

But it seems to me that while these are some of the reasons we might give for rejecting JW beliefs, what actually persuades us to reject those beliefs in the first place is often quite different.

One of the most important aspects of persuasion is social proof. We see other people leaving JWs and this persuades us that there are good reasons for leaving JWs. In logical terms this is a fallacy known as the bandwagon argument or argumentum ad populum. In this sense, it is the very existence of this site, its popularity, and the number of stories of leaving JWs it contains, which gives it persuasive power in drawing people away from JWs. Not the detailed doctrinal or historical arguments, but the stories of leaving, their volume and relatability.

Another important fallacy involved in persuasion is the genetic fallacy. Maybe others have had a similar experience of studying something for a long time to try to work out if it is true. You make arguments in your head for and against and go round in circles. This can go on a long time, but it's when you realise the history behind a particular JW truth claim that a lightbulb goes on and you realise it just cannot be true. Take 1914 for example and now you can get bogged down in translation issues, astronomical data, ancient cuneiform. You can get incredibly detailed if you want to spend days and weeks researching this. On the other hands just a few key peculiarities of the history of the doctrine can psychologically undermine it much more than empirical data. For example the fact the size of the pyramid was used to support 1914, that the date was changed from 606 BC to 607 BC to make it fit, that Russell got the date from other Adventists, that president Knorr said he didn't necessarily believe it, that they say Satan was kicked out of heaven in September/October but World War 1 started in August already... this could be a long list.

So often it's the historical circumstances of a teaching that undermines it more than logical arguments for and against. Refusing blood transfusion arose when donating blood was patriotic during wartime and vaccines were also stigmatised. Disfellowshipping started around the time Olin Moyle was kicked out of the religion and hardened following Raymond Franz's departure. Psychologically these details seem to harm belief in these doctrines more than a deep consideration of scriptures or arguments or logic.

Another thing that often persuades us JWs are wrong is the sheer weight of expert opinion that JWs are wrong about key issues. People are hard wired to respect authority and expert opinion. JWs do an excellent job of neutralising this in their literature by 1) arguing that not all experts reject their views such as about evolution and 2) providing their own experts to support their claims. When we were naive JWs we often assumed that experts were simply not in possession of all the facts. If they read the Creation book or considered things dipassionately they'd realise they are wrong to believe evolution. However if we expose ourselves to books that explain evolution clearly we realise that experts are well aware of the type of arguments JWs make and they do not find them compelling. We also find out that experts JWs claim are on their side are either being misrepresented or their credentials are not what they are cracked up to be. So we reject JW beliefs because they are supported by dubious means. We didn't realise how much expert opinion weighs against JWs because we were discouraged from reading such matters or studying them. So when we realise experts reject JW claims directly and unitedly this does a huge amount to undermine belief in JW teachings.

From personal experience I have noticed that arguing with a JW never convinces them they are wrong. If you want to convince a JW you need to persuade them not refute them. This requires a very illogical approach as explained above.

Having said that, while persuasion might be more effective than refutation, it is still not very effective. JWs will often only be convinced JWs are wrong when such a conclusion aligns with their own interests.

Logical arguments only work with people are are already convinced. Amd persuasion only works with people who want to be persuaded.

Displacement may be more effective than either persuasion or refutation. In other words, instead of arguing JWs are wrong, or undermining JWs by appealing to authority, the genetic fallacy or bandwagon effect, don't say anything about JWs at all. Ignore the subject and suggest doing something alternative instead of the ministry. Then instead of the meeting. Then make it regular. Maybe the best way to win an argument with JWs is to avoid the argument.

Just some ideas. What do you think?

41

How many JWs actually died in Nazi camps

by dogon in

the jws have tried to pad the number of jws in camps.

how many actually went and how many died?

can you site the source also?

slimboyfat

I have read Garbe's book, all 600 or something pages.

It may be true that some JWs were treated well by some Nazis who regarded them well. Just as Bill O'Reilly may be technically correct that the slaves who built the Whitehouse were well fed. It's still a stupid comment to make.

41

How many JWs actually died in Nazi camps

by dogon in

the jws have tried to pad the number of jws in camps.

how many actually went and how many died?

can you site the source also?

slimboyfat

I agree with that totally. Many signed and you don't hear about that in the Watchtower. Motivations were complex and messy and you don't hear about that in the Watchtower either.

But when OC goes off on one, claiming it was little more than self-interest, for men to avoid serving on the front, and that JWs were better fed than other people in Europe. I think that's just bitter talk, to the point of being unhinged. It's patently ridiculous for example to say it was in August Dickmann's interest not to compromise. And considering JWs faced starvation on the death marches it is simply in bad taste. Which pains me to say, because I have enjoyed many of OC's posts.

The comment reminded me of Bill O'Reilly's recent comments that slaves were provided with good accommodation and food.

https://youtu.be/hq5tNXX7vY4

41

How many JWs actually died in Nazi camps

by dogon in

the jws have tried to pad the number of jws in camps.

how many actually went and how many died?

can you site the source also?

slimboyfat

Have you read the stories of August Dickmann, Horst Schmidt or Leopold Engleitner? Can you explain how it served their own selfish interests not to sign the declaration? They had every reason to believe not signing or not cooperating meant their death, and in Dickmann's case it did.

The facf that some signed the declaration doesn't detract from the fact many didn't.

The fact that many had complex motivations (peer pressure among JWs was another you didn't mention) doesn't detract from the many heroic acts of defiance against the Nazis.

29

Lying In Wait At a Bed & Breakfast

by Cold Steel in

a few years ago while traveling in the northeast, my wife and i stopped in new haven, connecticut, at a b&b we'd reserved for the night.

no sooner had we unpacked and moved into the living room for tea and treats, our hosts began to talk about religion, and we learned they were jehovah's witnesses.

i didn't mind so much, but my wife was outraged that our hosts would use their place of business as a launching point to do missionary work.

slimboyfat

I guess this was before trip advisor? They'd probably think twice before pulling a stunt like that nowadays.

41

How many JWs actually died in Nazi camps

by dogon in

the jws have tried to pad the number of jws in camps.

how many actually went and how many died?

can you site the source also?

slimboyfat

Some of the JWs who signed the declaration did so as a form of "theocratic warfare". And that others did so as a result of pressure... is hardly surprising given the circumstances.

41

How many JWs actually died in Nazi camps

by dogon in

the jws have tried to pad the number of jws in camps.

how many actually went and how many died?

can you site the source also?

slimboyfat

Wikipedia has the correct numbers from Detlef Garbe the leading expert on this topic. There were 20,000 JWs in Nazi Germany, 10,000 were imprisoned, 2000 of them in concentration camps, and around 1200 died in custody including 250 who were executed.

This is the book to read on the topic.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Between-Resistance-Martyrdom-Jehovahs-Witnesses/dp/0299207943

JWs opposed Nazism before the Nazis even took power.

21

Are the Elders harder on Women

by Steel in

i was having a discussion with an old friend last night.

her parents are divorced and his mother never became “one of jehovah witnesses “ .

long story short she claims elders are generally hardier on women than men.

slimboyfat

I think elders are harder on non-elders, and since women can never be elders if follows in general they're harder on women. Aren't there even rules in the elders book that says an elder should be removed for a sin that would merit DFing for a non-elder. There are double standards.

To show it's not just a women thing, consider any long term non-appointed males or perpetual MS in the congregation. They were generally treated as pretty useless or with general suspicion if they were not "good enough" to be made up to an elder. If they landed in any trouble or dispute, their non-elder status was definitely held against them.