hey guys,.
i was reading popular science and i staggered across a line that suggested that russia had never landed men on the moon.
that struck me as blatantly false, i knew i'd seen footage of cosmonauts on the moon.
Yeah but look at all the money we've poured into it. They couldn't fix or improve anything with the billions of dollars going to that (worthless, in my opinion) program?
hey, i hear ya. it's been a colossal waste. i'm just saying that if NASA were to ever have tasted success it would've been 35 years ago when their stuff was new.
hey guys,.
i was reading popular science and i staggered across a line that suggested that russia had never landed men on the moon.
that struck me as blatantly false, i knew i'd seen footage of cosmonauts on the moon.
look at how unsuccessful NASA is right now. Look at all the mistakes they make now. They can't seem to get anything right.
I have my doubts that in the 60s they had it more together and were walking around on the moon.
well, the same shuttles they're using now were new in the 60s...
(might explain why they were so successful in the past and now, stangely enough, are not.)
it seems that when a person leaves jw's, there's just no telling where he'll end up spiritually.
christian, jew, pagan, jamesthomasism -- i dare say every faith is represented among us.. but there are those that reject faith altogether.
they are often accused of letting the watchtower steal god from them, or throwing the baby out with the bath.. are you one those that rejected faith altogether after your exit?
caedes:
Doogie, argumentum ad populum tsk tsk
easy, tiger. maybe i didn't make myself clear...
i wasn't personally making any argument. i was just saying that "observation" alone can't be considered objective evidence since observation is merely in the eyes of the beholder. you're right though, as far as objective evidence of god's existence goes, billions of people saying that they've observed god's hand carries no greater weight than one person "observing" him.
if all we had for evidence of the Earth's rotation around the sun was observation of the sun rising every morning, belief in a revolving earth would be faith based as there would be no mathematics showing why it does this (without math, who knows why the sun rises every morning? it could be a revolving earth just as easily as it could be a revolving sun. the observation would be functionally the same in either case).
however, we have detailed equations and measurements showing that the Earth orbits the sun and not vice versa, so faith in an orbiting Earth is not required. if a tribesman with no access to those equations and measurements still came to the conclusion that the earth revolves around the sun, his belief would be faith based even though he's right because he simply believes his subjective evidence (observation of the sun rising every morning)...just like a man who has no idea how his TV remote works but uses it wth confidence anyway (i.e. 'me') or the man that believes in god(s).
it seems that when a person leaves jw's, there's just no telling where he'll end up spiritually.
christian, jew, pagan, jamesthomasism -- i dare say every faith is represented among us.. but there are those that reject faith altogether.
they are often accused of letting the watchtower steal god from them, or throwing the baby out with the bath.. are you one those that rejected faith altogether after your exit?
hey tetra. what's up buddy.
I know that the TV will turn on and that the sun will rise because both have been observed billions of times.
so it's being able to observe something that's the difference between faith and knowledge? that's a bit subjective, huh? (billions of people through the centuries would attest that they have observed god's hand in their lives and so their faith is actually a knowledge of his existence...)
i'm just pickin on ya...i think understand what you're saying.
i just think that some of us shy away from the term "faith" because of it's religious/mystical connotations, but technically "faith" is just an expectation of something without facts to support that expectation...doesn't matter if the facts are out there or not...if we personally don't have a grasp of them, then they may as well not exist and a TV turning on is just as mystical and faith based as a belief in god(s).
it seems that when a person leaves jw's, there's just no telling where he'll end up spiritually.
christian, jew, pagan, jamesthomasism -- i dare say every faith is represented among us.. but there are those that reject faith altogether.
they are often accused of letting the watchtower steal god from them, or throwing the baby out with the bath.. are you one those that rejected faith altogether after your exit?
hey, dave:
Your basis for that faith is experience. You've pressed the button numerous times and it always caused things to happen that you expected. If sometimes you pressed the button and nothing happened at all, you'd switch from faith to hope. If sometimes the lights came on, sometimes the TV came on, sometimes your mother called... you might conclude that all those things would've happened anyway and your pushing the button was just a coincidence.
right, it is my experience with TVs that create my expectations. but i see that as being of equal weight to anyone's evidence for their faith (religious or not)...your experiences.
i think that your expectations in life are either based on subjective experiences (like a history of pressing POWER buttons and TVs turning on, or maybe praying and then feeling better), or objective facts (like a schematic diagram of a TV or a clinical study showing the effects of endorphins).
so, for me (to answer your original question), with my very narrow definition of "faith" as being expectations based on subjective evidence, i don't think anyone is immune to faith. i'm sure faith can be looked at from a broader perspective, and in that case, it's a whole 'nother ballgame (go Astros!).
another hurricane and the most powerful on record!!
mudslides, earthquakes, energy prices!
where is all this leading to?
but it may be nothing to unrecorded events that transpired in the missing 1800 years prior.
shoot, forget about the the last 2000 years...i heard this planet was a LOT worse for billions and billions of years. (it was real hot. oh, and not to mention the half dozen earthwide glaciation events over the history of the planet. hurricane? bah. at least we're not swimming in a global pool of lava.)
we're fantastically fortunate to be living at the very beginning of an extremely recent trend in which the planet is even remotely habitable.
another hurricane and the most powerful on record!!
mudslides, earthquakes, energy prices!
where is all this leading to?
Where is all this leading to?
[crosses fingers] c'mon, Thunderdome...c'mon, Thunderdome...
it seems that when a person leaves jw's, there's just no telling where he'll end up spiritually.
christian, jew, pagan, jamesthomasism -- i dare say every faith is represented among us.. but there are those that reject faith altogether.
they are often accused of letting the watchtower steal god from them, or throwing the baby out with the bath.. are you one those that rejected faith altogether after your exit?
i don't think it's possible to completely dismiss "faith" in a certain facet of life until you understand the facet's various mechanisms which allow it to operate.
i have "faith" that my TV will turn on when i press the POWER button (oh, god, please let it turn on...). the only reason i would classify that as faith is because i have no understanding of the steps that make pressing the POWER button turn the picture tube on. if i were to be interested enough to learn the mechanics of a TV, i would cease to have faith in my button press; i would have knowledge of how it works. (like flushing the toilet. i have no faith there, since i know exactly how pressing the lever causes the tank to empty into the bowl and overflow down the pipe in the back. OTOH, as far as whether it will take me 1 or 2 flushes...that's another matter entirely...)
with religion, cars, electronics, or anything else, faith exists where knowledge is absent.
no offense to those with large families (and no compliment to those with small ones), this is a thread speaking of averages and groups, not specific people and families.
your mileage may vary.
dealer participation will affect consumer cost.
no offense to those with large families (and no compliment to those with small ones), this is a thread speaking of averages and groups, not specific people and families.
your mileage may vary.
dealer participation will affect consumer cost.
shameless plug...
it's amazing how far some people take this idea...
