Posts by artful

19

Old Testament Faithful in Heaven?

by artful in

the wts doctrine that the faithful men and women of old would have no place in heaven in god's kingdom has never really sat right with me.

i did some scriptural research on it and thought i would share it .

any comments would be appreciated.

artful

Joseph: you stated "No" that is not your belief....could you please revise my explanation so I can understand where I have gone wrong with my statement of your belief.
____________
Joseph wrote: "Then I would say that your idea was not true and has no scriptural support. This is because we know for a certainty that Abraham is not there".
I'm sorry I didn't clarify; my suggestion was not that Abraham IS in heaven but rather that Jesus very use of this illustration suggests that the idea of Abraham being in heaven had some basis in reality to Jesus - at some point in time.
__________
As for picking my verse and making my point - since I have already done that with several scriptures above, I will repost below the scriptures which were not commented on:

Philippians 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
- Paul indicates that his prize is to be received in heaven with Jesus.

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
- I know that you could say that heavenly Jerusalem refers only to Godly Jerusalem, except that it also refers to thousands of angels in assembly with them (angels who by your own admission live in heaven).

Jesus indicated at Revelation 3:21 "To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne" to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.
- The location of the "Throne of Christ" and his co-rulers would then point us to the location of (if not all Christians) at least his 12 disciples:,

Matthew 5:34 But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne;

Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.

Acts 7:49 " 'Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool."

Revelation 3:21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Artful

35

Paradise: in Heaven or on Earth?

by artful in

the term "paradise earth" is one frequently used by the wts.

while researching the scriptural references to "paradise" (and the official wts explanation for each), i was surprised with what i found regarding the location of paradise.

these are the only three places that the word "paradise" can be found in the bible.. .

artful

onacruse: Thanks for that additional information regarding the OT use of the word paradeisos in other translations. It is interesting to note that many bible scholars over the years have also struggled with this issue.

Joseph: I think you are correct in stating that many are afraid to consider new ideas as this may "step on some long cherished ideas and thathurts". I personally do not consider myself in this category as my "long cherished" ideas were squashed years ago when I exited the WTS. I am currently building up a new faith based on scripture and very much appreciate new ideas like yours. Since we have discussed this issue elsewhere (see link above), I won't go into the specific problems I have with your reasoning, however, I would like to continue a point that onacruse made:

The very fact that there is no general consensus on this paradise issue may indicate that there is not enough evidence to say for a certainty what the real truth will be. Since sometimes the scriptural "proofs" for our individual faiths may not be iron clad, I think we need to be cautious about suggesting that anyone who does not see it our way is preaching an "antichrist" doctrine. For instance, Joseph, I know that some like to cite Acts 1:11 as "iron clad" proof that Jesus would return to Earth in the flesh: however, it could also be argued in light of other scriptures that refer to Christians reaching out for heavenly "citizenship", that Jesus "throne" is located in heaven etc. that Acts 1:1 could be understood to mean that Jesus return would be in Spirit with some sort physical manifestation ("as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.").

Not to get into a discussion on the return of Christ...my point is that by extracting our own "proof" scriptures and then insisting that our view is correct when presented with scriptural evidence that suggests a contrary view (when interpreted differently than we do), we are in danger of being as dogmatic as the WTS. Maybe, this paradise issue could be considered in the same way that you suggested regarding "after the 1000 years"...when you wrote "Trying to speculate beyond that is a waste of time". In other words, these "speculation" points make for some interesting discussions, but are in no way strong enough to be considered "basic scriptural truths".

Artful

35

Paradise: in Heaven or on Earth?

by artful in

the term "paradise earth" is one frequently used by the wts.

while researching the scriptural references to "paradise" (and the official wts explanation for each), i was surprised with what i found regarding the location of paradise.

these are the only three places that the word "paradise" can be found in the bible.. .

artful

Musky: thanks for your comment. I tend to agree, that in some ways it really doesn't matter where this paradise is located. However, as an aid to speaking with JWs it's interesting to note that even according to their own theology, the expression "paradise" seems (more often then not) to refer to heaven.

LB: It IS a sex link - just a very subliminal one! Keep looking ;-)

Joseph: Thanks for your input. I know your belief is that no man (either flesh or spirit) will ascend to heaven, only Jesus. I actually responded to this idea in detail in another thread...see:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=42689&site=3

Cheers
Artful

35

Paradise: in Heaven or on Earth?

by artful in

the term "paradise earth" is one frequently used by the wts.

while researching the scriptural references to "paradise" (and the official wts explanation for each), i was surprised with what i found regarding the location of paradise.

these are the only three places that the word "paradise" can be found in the bible.. .

artful

The term "Paradise Earth" is one frequently used by the WTS.
While researching the scriptural references to "paradise" (and the official WTS explanation for each), I was surprised with what I found regarding the location of paradise.
These are the only three places that the word "paradise" can be found in the Bible.

I would be interested in any comments about this idea.
Cheers
Artful
__________
Paradise references in the New Testament (there is no use of the word in the Old Testament)

Luke 23
43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth today you will be with me in paradise."

COMMENT- Of the 3 occurrences of the word paradise, this is the only one that is claimed by the WTS to refer to an earthly paradise, however, to determine Jesus' teaching of where paradise was located, see his words to John in Revelation below. Incidentally, I don't cite this scripture to prove that the criminal on the cross beside Jesus would be in paradise with him "that day" as he would certainly not have ascended to heaven ahead of Jesus.

2 Corinthians 12
1I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows. 3And I know that this man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows-- 4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.
COMMENT- Paul's reference to the location of paradise is in the heavens. (The WTS "Insight on the Scriptures" agrees with this thought).

Revelation 2
7He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
COMMENT- Jesus words (written by John) set the location of paradise as in the heavens. (The WTS "Insight on the Scriptures" agrees with this thought).

19

Old Testament Faithful in Heaven?

by artful in

the wts doctrine that the faithful men and women of old would have no place in heaven in god's kingdom has never really sat right with me.

i did some scriptural research on it and thought i would share it .

any comments would be appreciated.

artful

Joseph:
Just to clarify what your are saying, I would like to sum up my understanding of your point of view by paraphrasing your following two statements:
"Joseph answers: Visions and signs are of no value in a discussion where doctrine on this matter has already been established for thousands of years. Such visions do not alter such facts but simply illustrate them for us. They are not any more literal than the trees growing in this heaven or the city itself are literal." and
"Joseph answers: Literal discussions by our Lord are proof and if you have such proof please offer it."

Your contention seems to be that any mention of human ascension to heaven (even by Jesus - as quoted by John in Revelation, or Paul) outside of the 4 gospels is not a "literal discussion by our Lord" and is therefore not acceptable as scriptural proof of our possible ascension to heaven? Is this as an accurate representation of your belief?

If so, I respect you view, however, I would have to take issue with your reasoning. First of all "literal discussions by our Lord" is really an oxymoron since almost all of Jesus words are spoken in parable. That being the case, anything attributed to him could be taken by you to be a "representation" of something and not literal. For instance, I would use Jesus' illustration of Lazarus and the Rich Man as proof that Jesus' taught that some would ascend to heaven. However, you could refute it by simply saying that this is merely an illustration. I would then say that Jesus parables always used things that the crowds could relate to and understand. Jesus would certainly not have "made up" an illustration that he knew to be "completely false", or "without any basis in reality". To do so, would of course have confused the crowd and put into question his integrity. My contention is that Jesus very use of this illustration suggests that the idea of Abraham being in heaven had some basis in reality.

The writings of Paul and others in the NT (as originally quoted above), point to a "heavenly" reward, and I don't believe that these can ALL be dismissed with the "heaven = God" idea. When viewed in context, they do seem to indicate that Paul believed that he and his fellow Christians pressed toward the goal of "heavenly" citizenship. Also, the issue of sitting down with Christ on his throne (which according to scripture is in heaven - see above) seems to support this idea of "being" in a heavenly place. I would think that to ignore these texts, or to pass them all off as simply "visions and signs" is really not giving all the scriptures their due consideration.

Your idea that these scriptures are of "no value in a discussion where doctrine on this matter has already been established for thousands of years" worries me because it seems to suggest two things:
1. The beliefs expressed by the NT writers which are outside of statements directly attributed to Jesus could be discarded as accessory, and not necessarily accurate or literal.

2. The Jewish doctrine of heaven, earth and the Kingdom of God as understood by the OT writers (disciples, Martha, etc.) is the same as that of the NT writers. Or, where the Jewish doctrine is not the same as the NT writers (as indicated by the scriptures I quoted), the Jewish understanding takes precedence over the beliefs of the writers of the NT because of the length of it's existence.

Artful

Edited by - artful on 1 January 2003 14:23:30

17

Need Help with Info Sheet

by Nickey in

my somewhat "inactive" mother says she's getting the feeling that i'm losing my faith in the wts and has asked me to explain to her.

problem is, i locked up because it's been so recent and my mother can be quite intimidating.

she's a "see it to believe it" person and has suggested that i show her proof.

artful

UnDisfellowshipped: You have compiled quite a list there. I like your approach - using the WT quotes followed by applicable scriptural references. Great info...keep it coming!!
Cheers
Artful

16

144,000 and Rulership

by artful in

while investigating the wts concept of "two classes of christians" - the first being a heavenly ruling class made up of the 144,000, and the second an earthly subject class - i decided to investigate the basic wts premise that all of the 144,000 are to be "rulers with christ".

those who would rule with christ - the "first resurrection".

although it could be theorized that if paul said that the "saints" or "holy ones" are to judge the world, and these are part of the "firstfruits" then the some of the 144,000 may be ruling with christ.

artful

Friday: I understand your reasoning that "those rulers who had not receivedthemark ofthe beast on their foreheads (Re 20:4) are none other than theones who hadGod's name written on their foreheads, namely the 144,000(Re 14:1)."

However, by the same token I could reason that: "those of the Great Crowd who had also not received the mark of the beast on their foreheads (since they did not receive God's wrath - see point #1 in my previous post which you ignored)may also have God's name written on their foreheads."

You are correct in saying that there are no specific scriptures that actually state that the GC have the mark of Jehovah, but, by reasoning it out, it would seem that you are either "marked" as being with God or with the beast; there is no scripture to indicate any "middle gound". Besides, just having the mark of Jehovah does not (by scripture) automatically equate to being a ruler with Christ.

Most importantly, my point here was not to demonstrate that the Great Crowd have the name of Jehovah stamped on their foreheads. Rather, my point here is to try to make a connection between the 144K and rulership. My contention is still that there is not enough "plainly stated" scriptural evidence to support this claim. To use your own reasoning: Show me a scripture that plainly states that the 144K are the ones given "authority to rule" in Rev 20:4. Without this, the conclusion you make to is quite a leap!

Cheers
Artful

Edited by - artful on 24 December 2002 11:22:14

Edited by - ARTFUL on 24 December 2002 11:23:39

19

Old Testament Faithful in Heaven?

by artful in

the wts doctrine that the faithful men and women of old would have no place in heaven in god's kingdom has never really sat right with me.

i did some scriptural research on it and thought i would share it .

any comments would be appreciated.

artful

Joseph:
You have some interesting ideas. However, since what you are suggesting is very new to me I would like to take the time to properly address some of your reasoning that I find curious. Unfortunately, since today is Christmas Eve, I will be spending time with my family for the next two or three days. When I return, I will take some time to post a proper reply to your comments.

Cheers, and Merry Christmas!
Artful

15

Man 0 - Jehovah 1

by PopeOfEruke in

what really started cheesing me off with the wt and awake magazines while i was still an active jw was the constant propaganda based on man versus jehovah.

it was as if there was a great tug-of-war being propogated between man and god by the wt society.

everything that man made was constantly criticised and belittled, while whatever jehovah made was so great!

artful

Yadirf: thanks for the compliments! I would actually take your comment a step further and say that I am biased toward any "scriptural" theology that is presented to me. I guess after being subject to false teachings for so many years it has made me cautious. I prefer to test for myself the scriptural accuracy of anything that I hear coming from the WTS or any other source.

Just curious, do you speak to your house-to-house calls the way you speak to the people on this board?

Merry Christmas!
Fartful

19

Old Testament Faithful in Heaven?

by artful in

the wts doctrine that the faithful men and women of old would have no place in heaven in god's kingdom has never really sat right with me.

i did some scriptural research on it and thought i would share it .

any comments would be appreciated.

artful

Joseph: I appreciate and agree with much of your reasoning...however...

I don't really believe that the terms "heaven" and "God" can be used interchangeably. Just because Matthew (for a specific reason) used the expression "Kingdom of Heaven" to represent the "Kingdom of God", it does not follow that ANY use of the word heaven or heavenly by other writers would be meant to refer to a Godly-state not a location or destination.

I agree with your reasoning that being born again of spirit does not necessarily indicate that we would become spirit creatures in the future. I do think that being born of spirit although not altering our nature as humans, does alter our perspective from material to spiritual. This idea of altering our perspective is one that both Jesus and Paul preached (as quoted in my original scriptures above).

Your comments regarding Jesus' sayings are what I expected....essentially that he didn't specifically say we go to heaven but rather that our hope comes from there. And that he didn't say we would be angels, but would share their characteristics. I would have to agree with your reasoning here, and that on their own these specific texts don't prove that we go to heaven.

Unfortunately, this is where you stopped your explanations. I would suggest that the scriptures in Revelation that refer to the 144K and great crowd being present in heaven (with God, Jesus and the angels), and the others that I cited pertaining to Paul are the scriptures that present more of a challenge to your ideas (see below):

2 Corinthians 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven ,not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,
- Paul says that a Christian's house comes from God (as you have indicated), but then in a separate statement, he points to its location in heaven.

Philippians 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
- Paul indicates that his prize is to be received in heaven with Jesus.

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
- I know that you could say that heavenly Jerusalem refers only to Godly Jerusalem, except that it also refers to thousands of angels in assembly with them (angels who by your own admission live in heaven).

Joseph wrote:
"And what will we be doing there alone when our Lord promised to return here to rule?"

The scripture that you cite in Acts 1:11 does indicate that the Lord's return would be in the same manner as his ascension, but does it say that he would then remain on Earth and rule over his subjects from Earth? No! Jesus indicated at Revelation 3:21 "To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne" to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.
- The location of the "Throne of Christ" and his co-rulers would then point us to the location of (if not all Christians) at least his 12 disciples:

Matthew 5:34 But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne;

Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.

Acts 7:49 " 'Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool."

Revelation 3:21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.

These scriptures all point to the location of his throne and therefore that of his co-rulers who "sit with him on his throne" to be in heaven. If then EVEN ONE Christian could enter into heaven, the theory that no human could do this (in spirit or human form) would seem be undermined.

Artful