Posts by seattleniceguy

42

For sweetscholar: Is there proof that the Bible is inspired by God?

by seattleniceguy in

hello sweetscholar, .

as promised, here is the thread where we can discuss biblical inspiration.

in your post to me on the other thread, you made three main points: .

seattleniceguy

Thanks, chrissy! I almost forgot. I always think of it as September 5, because that's the day everything clicked in my mind. But you are right, in formal terms, December 6 is it! Thanks!
SNG

27

How Many Came in via Door-toDoor Witnessing?

by JW_Researcher in

.

what percentage would you say came into your old or current congregation(s) via the door-to-door witnessing?

it is understood that your response is a guestimate.

In my last hall, I can think of one person who came in during my term there.
In the hall before that, no one came in during my stay there.
All in all, that means that in five years, only one person came into the organization via D2D in my old halls.
SNG

42

For sweetscholar: Is there proof that the Bible is inspired by God?

by seattleniceguy in

hello sweetscholar, .

as promised, here is the thread where we can discuss biblical inspiration.

in your post to me on the other thread, you made three main points: .

seattleniceguy

sweetscholar,
Thank you for your response. I appreciate your willingness to see things from my point of view.
I'd be interested in whether you can find any authoritative evidence to back up your claim about the clotting factor. Just because many people say something doesn't make it true, especially if the people saying it are interested in backing up the Bible. So a neutral source, such a a medical web site, would be helpful.
I think you're mistaken about the Dead Sea Scrolls. The documents are from the first and second centuries BCE. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_sea_scrolls)
When I was a Witness I searched high and low, but I could never find any evidence that Isaiah was written any earlier than the second or third century BCE.
SNG

144

Is repititive imprinting of ideas a primary cult tactic?

by hubert in

in a post by syn that lady lee has brought up again, there is this statement by syn.

i could underline my watchtower in 10 minutes, tops, and be sure that all the answers were right.

many esteemed researchers have shown that repetitive imprinting of ideas is a primary cult tactic, and i tend to agree with them.

seattleniceguy

sweetscholar,
Here's a link to the new thread about Bible authenticity:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/103150/1.ashx
SNG

42

For sweetscholar: Is there proof that the Bible is inspired by God?

by seattleniceguy in

hello sweetscholar, .

as promised, here is the thread where we can discuss biblical inspiration.

in your post to me on the other thread, you made three main points: .

seattleniceguy

Hello sweetscholar,
As promised, here is the thread where we can discuss Biblical inspiration. In your post to me on the other thread, you made three main points:
1. Names of places and people in the Bible can be shown to have actually existed. Also, some of the historical events in the Bible are corroborated by outside sources, such as the Nabonidus Chronicle.
2. The Bible is scientifically accurate on some matters. You point to the phrase "the cicle of the earth" or "hanging the earth upon nothing" as examples of this. Circumcision was instructed to be performed on the 8th day, when (you say) clotting factor levels are the highest in the baby's life. And the Bible contains good rules for sanitation.
3. You suggest that the Bible contains true prophecy, such as naming the person who would destroy Babylon, and some details about Jesus' life.
Here are my responses.
On the first item, let's say that each and every time the Bible refers to a historical event, person, or place, it is accurate. Would this be proof that God inspired the Bible? Not really. It's easy to write down things that actually happen. Newspapers do this every day. Can you see how this is not convincing evidence?
Let me explain a bit more clearly. Let's say that 2000 years ago someone living in Palestine started writing down stuff that was going on. He named rulers, talked about current wars, and named specific places. Years later this document is discovered and, lo and behold, it contains accurate history! Would you say that this is proof that God inspired the document? Or would you just say, "Wow, he accurately reported current events"?
As it turns out, there are many places where the Bible is not historically accurate. But let's not get into those right now. Mainly, I want you to understand how simple historical accuracy doesn't mean anything. Otherwise every single copy of the New York Times is also inspired by God.
On the issue of scientific accuracy, let's take a look at your examples.
On the shape and position of the earth, I have two problems. The Bible does not accurately describe the earth as a sphere, but as a circle. These are totally different. A hula hoop is not the same shape as a beach ball. But even if it we are generous and we say that the ancient Israelites really knew that the earth was spherical, they weren't alone in that. Lots of other people had figured it out too, including Greeks and other Mesopotamians. All you have to do is look at the moon, and especially look at the earth's shadow cast on the moon during a lunar eclipse, and you can connect the dots. So again, unless you suggest that the other nations were also inspired by God, this is not strong evidence.
On the position of the earth, the phrase is "he is hanging the earth upon nothing." But in the very same verse, it says that God is stretching out the heavens like gauze, which you would probably not take literally. This is a piece of poetry which, by chance, happened to somewhat match the reality. There are lots of other places which describe the earth as having unshakable foundations. But in this case, Witnesses say, "Well, that was metaphorical." So you're picking and choosing which descriptions are metaphors and which were to be taken literally, when the fact is that they were all poetic descriptions. So I don't think you have a very strong case in saying the Bible was accurately describing the earth's position in space. You're just picking one of the many descriptions of the earth which happens to basically match reality.
As to good sanitation, instructing the Israelites to cook their food properly and bury their excrement is not exactly breakthrough science. Yes, there were some cultures that used excrement in medicines, etc. But not everyone did this. Excrement is among the most disgusting things on earth to most people, so the concept of burying it comes pretty naturally. Certain animals, such as cats, bury their excrement. So again, I can't say I'm terribly impressed by this.
As to the issue of circumcision on the eighth day, I was unable to find any reference supporting the idea that clotting factor is at its highest point on the 8th day. I did find a resource (http://aish.com/literacy/lifecycle/bris_milah_beautiful_or_barbaric$.asp) which states that on the 8th day, clotting factor is finally up to normal levels, after being very low for the first few days after birth.
I think there are several easy explanations for this. The seen-day week had special significance to Israelites, with their concept of sabbath, and with their teaching that the world was created in seven "days." The fact that they settled on the 8th day (one week from birth) to do the circumcision, isn't particularly surprising. The fact that this happened to match the day that clotting factors stabilize was probably accidental. However, I will give you this: Of all the evidence you've offered so far, this one has at least some merit.
Regarding prophecy, there are basically two types of prophecy in the Bible: 1) Extremely clear prophecy (for example, the kind where names are named), and 2) Poetic prophecy, where you don't really know it's supposed to be prophecy until after the fact.
Here is the problem with this type of evidence. The extremely clear prophecy (such as the one that names Cyrus as the destroyer of Babylon) is neat and all, but there is no evidence at all that it was written before the fact. How do you know Isaiah was written back in 740? Because it says that it was? There are no manuscripts earlier than the Dead Sea Scrolls, so there is no real proof that it was written before the fact. And there is evidence (based on the style of writing, grammar, spelling, etc) that it was written after the fact, so this is a much more logical conclusion.
With regard to the poetic prophecies about Jesus, to me these are unconvincing because they are like fortune cookies. You've got a whole mountain of poetry in the Psalms and minor prophets, etc. It's easy to find a few verses that seem to be talking about Jesus, after the fact. None of it explicitly claims to be talking about him (except perhaps Isaiah 53). Most of the superscriptions say that the poem is about David or Solomon. Christians, of course, say that Jesus is the "greater Solomon," etc, but the supposed prophecies themselves don't contain any ideas like that.
So, when it comes down to it, the only piece of evidence that has any weight at all to me is the circumcision thing, but it's not hard to believe that that is simply accidental. Babies are in a state of flux when they first get born. New to the world, eyes welded shut - no one is going to circumcise a newborn. It makes sense that they would wait a week. That happens to be about the time the baby's immune system and other systems are coming online. That seems like a much more logical conclusion to me.
Anyway, I hope this helps you understand where I'm coming from.
Regards,
SNG

144

Is repititive imprinting of ideas a primary cult tactic?

by hubert in

in a post by syn that lady lee has brought up again, there is this statement by syn.

i could underline my watchtower in 10 minutes, tops, and be sure that all the answers were right.

many esteemed researchers have shown that repetitive imprinting of ideas is a primary cult tactic, and i tend to agree with them.

seattleniceguy

Well, sweetscholar, this post is a welcome change. Perhaps we can have a reasonable discussion after all.
However, this thread is not about the authenticity of the Bible, so I will start a new thread about that topic, starting with the points you made, and post the URL here so you can jump over to it. See you in a bit.
SNG

53

LOOKS OR PERSONALITY?

by Mary in

jw
friends

ok, if you had to choose between looks and personality, which wins?

guys: if a girl is only mediocre in the looks department but is absolutely fab-u-lous in the personality dept...........which is more important to you?

or are they equally important?

seattleniceguy

>> Is it a true fact that most guys do not like condoms?
LOL...who on earth could possibly *like* them?
SNG

144

Is repititive imprinting of ideas a primary cult tactic?

by hubert in

in a post by syn that lady lee has brought up again, there is this statement by syn.

i could underline my watchtower in 10 minutes, tops, and be sure that all the answers were right.

many esteemed researchers have shown that repetitive imprinting of ideas is a primary cult tactic, and i tend to agree with them.

seattleniceguy

sweetscholar,
I haven't bothered to respond to your Bible comments because you have demonstrated that you are not capable of an adult conversation. Just so you know, however, I have considered the points you raised and none of them support the idea that the Bible is inspired by God.
Actually, as you will have noticed, I have not attempted to engage you in debate at all. I only debate with reasonable people, where both parties are interested in learning new things. You might be such a person, but if so, you've done a very good job of disguising that fact.
With regard to your claims that you are getting hostility because you are a Witness, I can tell you that, at least for myself, that is false. I am capabable of respectful discussion with any reasonable person. Jehovah's Witnesses can be reasonable. In my experience, these tend to be fairly rare, but I judge a person by the way they engage in dialog, not by the particulars of what they believe. Your newest arch-enemy, Peacekeeper, showed up in a reasonable tone of voice and behaved like an adult. For this, you call him "borderline apostate."
I really am curious, however, about your identity. Your word choice and style of writing are very similar to someone I used to know. Would you please just tell me if your first name is Michelle and if you lived near Long Beach, CA a few years ago?
Regards,
SNG

144

Is repititive imprinting of ideas a primary cult tactic?

by hubert in

in a post by syn that lady lee has brought up again, there is this statement by syn.

i could underline my watchtower in 10 minutes, tops, and be sure that all the answers were right.

many esteemed researchers have shown that repetitive imprinting of ideas is a primary cult tactic, and i tend to agree with them.

seattleniceguy

Peacekeeper,
I just wanted to make a suggestion for a good resource. If you're interested in reading some thoughtful articles with 0% vitriol content (always a good thing in my book), check out this web site: http://members.aol.com/beyondjw/bj.htm
In particular, look at the articles under the subheading "Points to Ponder."
I found this site to be clearly written and enlightening when I began considering the issues carefully.
Best wishes,
SNG

144

Is repititive imprinting of ideas a primary cult tactic?

by hubert in

in a post by syn that lady lee has brought up again, there is this statement by syn.

i could underline my watchtower in 10 minutes, tops, and be sure that all the answers were right.

many esteemed researchers have shown that repetitive imprinting of ideas is a primary cult tactic, and i tend to agree with them.

seattleniceguy

Peacekeeper,

Welcome to the board! Hang up your jacket, grab a cup of joe, and pull up a seat. Hope to hear from you lots - you sound like a person who's true to their name.

Keep focused on 1 topic - and 1 topic only rather than many different topics which inevitably goes nowhere.

Ordinarily, I would agree that the type of discussion on this thread is pointless. But in this particular instance, sweetscholar is producing such an incredibly compelling real-life example of the results of indoctrination ("repetitive imprinting of ideas", as the thread title calls it) that I could hardly think of a better way of making the point.

Anyway, welcome again. See you around!

SNG