Posts by seattleniceguy

55

Signs of the end, are they so clear that we don't see them anymore?

by JH in

jw
friends

7 ?for nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another.

8 all these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.

9 ?then people will deliver you up to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name.

seattleniceguy

seattleniceguy, if you count yourself as one "in this generation", how can you say that WE are wrong, since your end has not come?

LOL...Okay, would it make you happier if I said that every generation from Jesus until the generation that has just died? We're talking about the difference of a few years out of two thousand.

But it was generous of you to admit that if this generation dies before the Lord returns, that it will indeed have been added to the ranks of those that were wrong about it. I'll make a similar concession: If it turns out that I'm wrong about Jesus not coming, then I will have been proven to be wrong about that.

SNG

68

The evidence AGAINST evolution

by AlmostAtheist in

jw
friends

no, sorry, i won't be providing any.

this is a thread for those that have done some research and concluded that evolution is not how various species came to exist.. have you done the research?

do you believe that species exist as a result of god's direct creation?

seattleniceguy

AlmostAtheist,

You asked about speciation events and how this would work. I think you may be misunderstanding how speciation works.

Speciation is really a non-event. It's not as though two creatures have a baby one day and boom! it's another species. It usually happens when two populations of the same species become geographically isolated. Each continues adapting to the local environment, but the local environment is different. If and when the two meet up again, if they cannot or do not choose to interbreed, a new species has been established. If they do interbreed, by definition, there is no species boundary yet.

Denton provides a fascinating example of a phenomenon that illustrates this called circular overlaps. This occurs when a species progressively moves out in one direction, making its way around the world. Each population interbreeds with neighboring populations, but the two ends are totally distinct and cannot interbreed.

The classic case of this is the two species of Eupopean gull - the herring gull (Larus argentatus) and the lesser black backed gull (Larus fuscus). In Europe the two species are distinct. They do not interbreed and are quite different in terms of appearance and behaviour. However, if one geos east across Russia and Sibera the herring gull does not occur and the lesser black backed gull becomes increasingly unlike the European tye and comes gradually, by the time one reaches the Bering Straits, to resemble the herring gull. Similarly, if one travels west across the Atlantic the lesser black back does not occur but the herring gull, which is found right across the northern regions of North America, increasingly comes to resemble the lesser black backed gull the farther west one goes. In Eastern Siberia there is a form of gull which is almost exactly intermediate between the herring gull and the lesser black backed gull. All the different races interbreed with adjactent races except at the two ends of the ring where the two forms are two distinct non-interbreeding species. One can trace, step by step, the formation of the two species by following the intergrading subspecies right round the northern hemisphere. A more dramatic demonstration of the reality of speciation in nature can hardly be imagined! --Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, 1985, pp. 81-82.

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37

A Poem for Jehovah's Witnesses and Apostates

by slimboyfat in

jw
friends

in broken images he is quick, thinking in clear images; .

i am slow, thinking in broken images.

i become sharp, mistrusting my broken images, .

seattleniceguy

slimboyfat,

I think that you are overstating the non-belief of ex-JWs and (especially) understating the non-belief of the average citizen.

For example, you say that average citizens merely "fail to believe" that JWs have the truth, whereas ex-JWs go out of their way to "believe that JWs do not have the truth." But I think that this comes down to degrees of informedness.

To clarify, consider your position on some religon that you don't really know much about. Let's just pick Hare Krishnas, for example. Apologies if you do know a lot about this group, but just imagine that you don't for the moment. If you were asked whether they had the truth, you would probably answer in the negative, but it might be qualified with a "Well, I don't know too much about them, but..."

Now consider a person who has left the Hare Krishnas, a Krishna apostate, if you will. Our Krishna apostate likewise believes the Krishnas don't have the truth, but he is much better informed regarding exactly why. Since being informed rightly makes a person more confident in their viewpoints, the apostate Krishna is more passionate. This would especially be the case if he believed the religion was not neutrally "not true," but actually harmful.

So it is with the Witnesses. Most of the people on this board agree - as do most of the people on the planet - that the JWs do not have the truth. The only difference is that the people on this board are, on average, much better informed, so they rightly hold their viewpoint with more confidence. If some become strident in their views, that is unfortunate, since it is that very thing that most people dislike about groups such as the Witnesses. But that is not a trait common to all people who have left the organization.

So I think it should be clear that these boxes you are continually putting people in are meaningless. They do not aid in discussion here. I think you would enjoy yourself a lot more - and get more out of the discussions - if you would abandon your efforts to classify people and instead just discuss things.

I hope you're enjoying this discussion. I am.

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22

Just can't get this out of my head

by jt stumbler in

being recently self-dissassociated, i cannot get out of my head something that happened to me more than 20 years ago.

having studied much in my youth, and being the submarine witness that i was, i married at 19 and began my "worldly coarse".

i just knew it was the "truth".

seattleniceguy

When I left the org and was still struggling with the idea of whether God exists, I prayed that he might show me the way. I almost burst out laughing when the Mormons showed up at my door a couple days later. In disbelief, I talked to them for a few minutes before confirming that, yes, they are totally wacky and could never be sent by God, unless God has a very, very strange sense of humor. (No offense to our LDS friends here.)

Seriously. When people are looking for signs, they'll find signs. Good things and bad things happen to us every day. We find a $20 bill. We lose our car keys. If you have in mind some context of "God is rewarding/punishing/leading me," you'll find all sorts of "proof" to back it up.

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37

A Poem for Jehovah's Witnesses and Apostates

by slimboyfat in

jw
friends

in broken images he is quick, thinking in clear images; .

i am slow, thinking in broken images.

i become sharp, mistrusting my broken images, .

seattleniceguy

Yes, slimboyfat, I understand that that is your position - one of agnosticism with regard to the question of whether the JWs have the truth.

I know AlmostAtheist has pointed this out in another thread, but I think it bears consideration. JW doctrine itself precludes the moderate position that you are trying to take. You can't believe JW doctrine and at the same time take a moderate position because by doing so you take a stand against the JW doctrine.

I think this is an important point.

Valis and Pole: C'mon guys, let's give a guy credit where credit is due. I saw this as a thoughtful thread. Remember the dynamism in all our belief systems.

SNG

55

Signs of the end, are they so clear that we don't see them anymore?

by JH in

jw
friends

7 ?for nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another.

8 all these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.

9 ?then people will deliver you up to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name.

seattleniceguy

Every single generation of people between Christ and now has thought their generation was it. They all had one thing in common: they were wrong.

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37

A Poem for Jehovah's Witnesses and Apostates

by slimboyfat in

jw
friends

in broken images he is quick, thinking in clear images; .

i am slow, thinking in broken images.

i become sharp, mistrusting my broken images, .

seattleniceguy

Hello slimboyfat,

But don't you worry that apostates rely on such images just as Jehovah's Witnesses?

Some people do. It's a human tendancy, as can be seen by the surge in fundamentalism in general. The myth of absolute certainty is tantalizing. The main difference between JWs and ex-JWs is that ex-JWs (apostates, if you like) have come to believe firmly that one particular set of images are broken. This is not the same as trusting in their own images. Certainly, it is the best if we can apply our critical thinking abilities to all belief systems. Ex-JWs are just more outspoken about the one they have the most experience with. Lack of belief in a given system is not the same as positive belief in another system. I appreciated your straightforwardness on this thread. SNG

19

Another WTS Misrepresentation from the Creator Book

by AlanF in

here is a good example of the sort of complex misrepresentations that the watchtower society performs.

the 1998 creator book says the following (chap.

" not, "what happened after the origin of the universe?

seattleniceguy

Great thread, as always, AlanF. The way the Society deals with science is staggeringly uninformed.

robhic, I like your Panda Universe. The really funny thing would be to see a debate between a Christian Creationist and a Panda Creationist. What possible evidence is there for either one? That's the beauty of non-falsifiable concepts - you can come up with millions of them, all equally "valid."

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27

Commenting

by DocHayes in

jw
friends

what type of commenter where you?.

where you the one who answered the question word, for word from the paragraph?.

where you the little kiss @$$ who would more or less read the answer verbatum, but would also tie in a scripture?.

seattleniceguy

I wouldn't answer unless I could come up with something that was remotely interesting. So I was always looking for that side point about the type of sandals worn by first century Jews, or whatever.

But we had this one dude, I swear, I can't believe he got away with it, he would without fail tie any paragraph in with like Eastern philosophies and stuff. It would be a paragraph about leprosy, and he would be bringing in Buddha and Universal Compassion. He was one of those guys that the conductor would studiously ignore unless nobody else was raising their hand. And even then it took a while for him to break down and call on the poor guy.

Funniest thing was that after I left, of all people he was shocked that I didn't believe in the Bible anymore!

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46

The Watchtower, Scholar and Misrepresentation of Source References

by AlanF in

our resident pretend-jw-scholar who calls himself "scholar" enjoys justifying lying and misrepresentation by the watchtower society and himself.

the society, out of one side of its collective mouth, recommends not misrepresenting source references, yet out of the other side, goes ahead and does so without hesitation whenever it is convenient.

the society understands that unfair quoting is dishonest.

seattleniceguy

There is none so blind as he who will not see, indeed.

Excellent work, AlanF. Dishonest scholarship creates in me an anger unlike any other. Readers in general expect honest writing, but people who believe they are reading the products of God's only channel are all the more trusting. It is the fact that the Society intentionally misrepresents that enrages the depths of my soul. There is no excuse for this behavior: it is unconscionable.

SNG