Alf3831

Joined

• started 2 topics
• posted 44 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by Alf3831

• 
  332

  The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.

  but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .

  i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Alf3831

  Slimboyfat,

  Not sure if someone mentioned this before...Dr. Frank Shaw is an inactive Jehovah's Witnesses. Of course that -shouldn't take away from his otherwise excellent scholarship. He prefers to maintain a low profile.

  -Alf3831
• 
  20

  Were there ever any fisticuffs in the KH?

  by badboy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  any takers?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Alf3831

  I have never discussed this story with anyone other than with those involved, but given the topic, feel it appropriate to finally bring out.

  About 12 years ago, I was at a JW house party (or gathering as some of us used to call it). This was at the home of a brother from the Spanish congregation near Los Angeles. Well, there was music playing, and everyone was hanging out in the backyard. However, it soon became evident that there were a few "worldly people" at this gathering. There was quite a bit of drinking going on, so some in attendance were quite intoxicated by this time. One of the Spanish brothers, along with two others approached some of the "worldly people", and asked, "Hey, Are you guys Jehovah's Witnesses?", to which the worldly person responding nervously said, "Yeah, uhm, we are Jehovah's Witnesses." The brother then said, "Don't lie to us man, because if you arent Jehovah's Witnesses, we are going to kick your a$$!" Needless to say, these worldly ones soon left. However, something else transpired later, at that same party, with this same brother from the Spanish.

  Several young ones from the English congregations showed up, and one of them approached the owner of the home, and asked "Can I get something to drink?", to which the owner of the home, (a brother from the Spanish) responded, "there is a market across the street." The young brother from the english responded "Cant I at least have some water?" To which the Spanish brothers said "Go across the street." The young brother then responded with "What you guys dont serve whites here?" Immediately with that comment, a half-dozen of the Spanish brothers rushed outside and started smacking this young english brother. He was not alone, so several english brothers came to his aid. Eventually a fight ensued Spanish vs English about 6 on 6...several there got beaten up pretty bad. Most of those involved were between 17-25 years of age, there were no older JW's in attendance. Of course once the fighting started, (as a good JW) I wisely got in my vehicle and headed home...........This is a true story...I am unaware if any of the congregational elders got involved in the aftermath....

  Alf3831
• 
  21

  Question for those who chose to be JW

  by pc in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i was born into the borg, i was wondering what made you join.

  my mother who is now deceased use to say she did all this research.

  my brother keeps stating that as this great fact to me.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Alf3831

  In my experience, most JW's I knew considered research to consist of reading the Insight volumes, and bound volumes back to the early 1950's. Anything beyond that was considered unneccessary.

  For nearly 10 years I was associated with a group of brothers that did go much further in researching the bible, biblical languages, and bible history. Often, most of these brothers stayed within the realm of what I call "safe topics." Such as the trinity, hell-fire and other minor issues. They usually stayed away from touchy subjects, such as GB authority, chronology, history of JW doctrine, and the blood issue. Personally I think the reason for it was because deep down they knew that the WT position was an "un-defendable" one.

  My thoughts,

  Alf3831
• 
  37

  John 1:1 and God being "with" God.

  by hooberus in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the watchtower says regarding john 1:1: "someone who is "with" another person cannot also be that other person" .

  this argument is used by them againist the trinity.

  while trinitarians believe that there is only one god, they also believe that there are distinct persons within the one god and that each person is god.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Alf3831

  The watchtower says regarding John 1:1: "Someone who is "with" another person cannot also be that other person"

  They also emphasize that if there are two persons here described, then they also must be two beings. Something trinitarians deny.

  This argument is used by them againist the Trinity. While Trinitarians believe that there is only one God, they also believe that there are distinct persons within the one God and that each person is God. Thus they are able to be "with" one another, yet each be God, and that there is still only one God.

  If each person is God, then there are more than one God's, correct? Where is "God" defined like this in the scriptures? Honest trinitarians admit that no such definition can be found in the text.

  (Trinitarians believe that the one God exists in the form of three eternal persons and that God can be in more than one place at a time).

  Hmmm, so when it is "the word was God", it means, "the word was three eternal persons?" Interesting concept. Alf3831
• 
  29

  Governing Buzzards - Part 7 - Did Rutherford have a Mistress?

  by Amazing in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  governing buzzards ?

  changes in religious doctrine, dogma, cannon, practices, liturgy and ritual are common and almost all christians have witnessed this in their denominations ?

  including fringe groups like jehovah?s witnesses.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Alf3831

  Jimmy,

  My response to your post was to simply show that the to imply that the Judge had a mistress and discuss it in a public forum, with such limited resources is irresponsible in my opinion. The minimal information I provided was posted to provide an alternative, that your post did not or possible would not explore.

  Obviously the Judge had some issues. Whether he having a mistress is fact or not, who can honestly make that claim today. I have admired some of your posts in the past, and to involve yourself in claims based on limited/thin possibilities is rather beneath your other more substantive posts. That is all I was hoping to accomplish in responding to your post.

  I look forward to reading your comments on the Moyle trial.

  Sincerely,

  Alf3831

  PS. The Judge was actually judge for 4-days not one.
• 
  29

  Governing Buzzards - Part 7 - Did Rutherford have a Mistress?

  by Amazing in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  governing buzzards ?

  changes in religious doctrine, dogma, cannon, practices, liturgy and ritual are common and almost all christians have witnessed this in their denominations ?

  including fringe groups like jehovah?s witnesses.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Alf3831

  Amazing,

  I said the following:

  Sexy underwear that she was wearing in the 1960's? Cmon, Rutherford had been dead for 20 years and you show that as some sort of proof?

  You then responded with the following:

  I never said that ... you are taking a minor point made by Larc, and attempting to manipulate it to say that is the linch-pin of the account. To be intellectually honest, lets' add in the rest of the facts:

  I did not mean to imply that this was the only point made in your post. However, this piece of info in and of itself is meaningless, and neither proves or provides any circumstantial evidence.

  You then cite the following:

  1. Berta leaves her husband to go to Bethel, and then divorces her husband.

  2. She immediately gets assigned to a privileged position instead of waiting to work her way up the ranks.

  3. She accompanies and lives with Rutherford the rest of his life.

  4. I conclude with the remark that the REST OF THE STORY will be made available in the next part when the documented information from the Olin Moyle trial is brought out.

  1. Someone leaving their mate to go to bethel and divorcing their husband, doesnt mean they are having an affair with Rutherford, sorry......

  2. Just because she gets assigned a special position, is nothing new, as I have stated before. This was commonplace back then. I gave other examples, such as Bert Schroeder. I am sure other stories of favortism exist.

  3. Also, there are many that lived and accompanied Rutherford during this time period. Shall we conclude that since he had a close relationship with William Heath, and lived with him at times, means they may have had homosexual tendencies? Cmon, Rutherford constantly maintained a staff with him...this piece is not as damaging as I am sure you had hoped.

  4. It has been nearly 10 years since I have read the Moyle transcripts. Would be interested to know your conclusions based on the testimony provided by both Moyle and the WT respondents.

  You fail to mention any of this though it is clearly stateing in my opening post. Fascinating. Finally, I never conclude or attempt to prove that Rutherford has a mistress, with sex photos ... rather, I ask the question, tell the story as relayed to me by Larc, the nephew of Berta ... and show that at least a strong possibility existed that she was Rutgherford's mistress ... now, let's see what is shown in Part 8, The Olin Moyle Trial, and then shower me with loving criticism.

  I did provide a response to the issue of favortism and the meaningless info on the "special underwear." I did not read in your post that you conclude that Rutherford did in fact have a mistress, given your lack of substantive evidence. However by citing Larc's info and posting them with your comments, shows that you imply it and as such feel this is simply shoddy baseless research and commentary.

  Anyway, your additional information is interesting. It is mostly common knowledge, and is not relevant to this account, but thanks for sharing anyway.

  The information I provided proved that Berta was not alone residing with Rutherford, rather there is substantial information indicating that Rutherford maintained a staff with him on a continual basis. This proves that Berta in all likelihood could not have had an affair with Rutherford. Also, the issue of favortism was shown to be meaningless. All additional information was simply provided to correct your inaccurate statements.

  Hope this helps.

  Alf3831
• 
  29

  Governing Buzzards - Part 7 - Did Rutherford have a Mistress?

  by Amazing in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  governing buzzards ?

  changes in religious doctrine, dogma, cannon, practices, liturgy and ritual are common and almost all christians have witnessed this in their denominations ?

  including fringe groups like jehovah?s witnesses.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Alf3831

  VM44,

  We need more research like you have done.

  Are you planning a book?

  I did some research on Rutherford about 8 years ago. I was unable to complete it, though I still have my old notes, documentation and interviews. I considered writing a book, but my research wasnt complete and was not enough to fill a book. There is some good information that can be obtained from the Moyle transcripts, but I have come to conclude that there is always two sides to a story, and I dont take either the Judge nor Moyle's side of the story at face value.

  Alf3831
• 
  29

  Governing Buzzards - Part 7 - Did Rutherford have a Mistress?

  by Amazing in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  governing buzzards ?

  changes in religious doctrine, dogma, cannon, practices, liturgy and ritual are common and almost all christians have witnessed this in their denominations ?

  including fringe groups like jehovah?s witnesses.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Alf3831

  When I first saw the heading of this post I thought some convincing evidence would be brought out to show that at least in all probability, the Judge did have a mistress. In reading the post, it leaves much to be desired. Sexy underwear that she was wearing in the 1960's? Cmon, Rutherford had been dead for 20 years and you show that as some sort of proof? Granted there seems to be some issues here regarding a sort of favortism on the part of Rutherford. However, this was very common back then. Some may recall that Rutherford's secretary was given the opportunity to remain a bethelite, even though she had married. How about Bert Schroeder (Family and all) being a recent University of Michigan grad and brought into bethel, and being amongst the first instructors at Gilead. Such arrangements are nothing out of the ordinary. Also, we have been given no evidence of the reasons why this individual divorced her husband. This special pleading is an attempt to simply paint a negative picture of the Judge, without a substantive foundation.

  The post seemed to imply that only Rutherford and his dietician were amongst the Beth-Sarim residents. However, it has been well-documented that Beth-Sarim had many regular visitors, and a staff that lived with Rutherford. No mention is given of the Balko family, with their two children who maintained the grounds and had dinner at Beth-Sarim on a regular basis. Dan Sydlik mentioned meeting Rutherford at Beth-Sarim in the 6/1/85 Watchtower. Sandra Cowen, a JW in San Diego mentioned going to Beth Sarim often and mentions that there were full-time servants (WT, 3/1/92). The May 27, 1942 Consolation also discusses that a staff was maintained at Beth-Sarim. This is not to mention of William Heath, who was Rutherford's secretary before his death and stayed at the residence along with his wife. I also interviewed a James Smitha back in 1995, who was a bethelite from 1934-1936, and discussed spending several days with Rutherford and his staff at Beth-Sarim back in 1933.

  Now, with all these regular visitors, including the San Diego witnesses, Knorr, and others visiting regularly, and the full-time staff at the residence. Also, the fact that for 12 years he only spent his winters there, you think he was able sneek around with his dietician?

  BTW, Mary Rutherford lived in Monrovia, California which is just about a 100 mile trek to the north. So we have no idea if there was any communication there. She remained an active Jehovah's Witness until her death in 1962.

  Also, Malcolm Rutherford was involved with the Los Angeles Ecclesia up until the early 1930's. I have confirmed this during an interview with a member of that congregation who knew Malcolm and his wife. Apparently there was a split in this congregation, and subsequently Malcolm no longer attended. He was an attorney in Los Angeles and died in 1989. Just for the record, it is well-documented that he refused interviews from both Jehovah's Witnesses and their opposers (Duane Muagini, being one of them).

  Alf3831
• 
  8

  Johannes Greber -Spirit Medium's translation used in NWT-john1:1

  by wednesday in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  http://www.premier1.net/~raines/greber.html

  http://www.premier1.net/~raines/wtgreber.html

  i called the why 1914 line yesterday and talked with them, they gave me some excellent inffo about johannes greber, a spiritual medium who the wts used to back up john 1:1. i was appalled.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Alf3831

  The issue regarding Greber has been discussed to death, in my opinion. It has been shown by several researchers who have delved into this issue, that at most what the Greber situation proves is that the WT society is guilty of shoddy research. There seems to be significant evidence that individuals who were responsible in quoting from this translation from the early 60's through the late 70's had no idea of his connection with spiritism. This has been confirmed with a few former members of the writing department, specifically Ray Franz and Reinhard Lengtat. Apparently the author of the article in 1956 who knew of Greber's background, was either no longer on the writing committee, or apparently forgot about Greber's background which according to several former bethelites is not all that uncommon.

  Stafford's appendix on this issue was amazingly accurate, even though he did not have the testimony of former writers at the time of its preparation.

  Any comments made regarding this situation that goes beyond what is noted above has an agenda and is simply trying to paint the JW's in a bad light.

  Alf3831
• 
  11

  Michael Jackson's Mom/Firpo Carr/William's Sister

  by ExpandedMind in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  how can "active" jws such as mj's mom, firpo carr and the william's sister who attended mjs support party, openly support him (because he is an exjw) without getting reproved or disfellowshipped by the organization?

  i know that we don't see what goes on behind the scenes, perhaps the do get a "talking to" by the elders, but it seems lately that certain active jws are more bold about associating openly with exjws.. has anyone ever read anything about mjs mom's justification of her on-going relationship with mj?

  i realize that situations like this (jws associating with exjws) go on all the time in the organization; it is nothing new.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Alf3831

  Last I heard Firpo W. Carr remains an active JW, who professes to be of the anointed (has done so since he was around 19 yrs of age). Firpo's picture came out in a WT magazine in late 2000 or early 2001. It showed lots of pics of brothers/sisters at the convention. He came out in one wearing african gear.

  In my interaction with Firpo he is a very kind and articulate individual. However, once the camera is on, or if on the radio, imo he becomes a different person. Unfortunately he has bought into the hype regarding his status as an african-american leader.

  Alf3831