New JW relationship

by dougpotts 33 Replies latest social relationships

  • dougpotts
    dougpotts

    In Ch of Scotland, people in authority are elected by congregation only. Who elect JW elders.

    How would elders know that holidays,xmas,birthdays ect are being recognised by family. Is it not something they have little control of.

    Is the original bible recognised or simply the JW translated bible- and how near to original is it. Is translated simply a convertion created to enforce JW views.Does the watchtower mag take precedence over bible.

    How do JW look at Wordly people. Do they look down on them.Do they think they are superior in some way.Is it a slur.

    What effect does being made inactive have.

    OldSoul said that the elders would fullfill spiritual guidence role. Surely the husband can say its none of their dam business. Thats a family matter.

    Old Soul- you talk about emotional clubbing- what exactly do you mean.

    Congregation powers - in my church the congregation is supreme and can decide everything. Surely the congregation in JW faith has some powers over the running of the church.

    Oldsoul says that only thru the organisation can god be spoken to by JW - Where in the bible do they get this assumption from. After all they were only invented about 1900.

    Doug

  • OldSoul
    OldSoul
    Congregation powers - in my church the congregation is supreme and can decide everything. Surely the congregation in JW faith has some powers over the running of the church.

    No. Sad to say, authority runs contrary to the Scriptures among Jehovah's Witnesses, entirely top down.

    Oldsoul says that only thru the organisation can god be spoken to by JW - Where in the bible do they get this assumption from.

    They don't get it from the Bible. They invented it. But if someone challenges it too carefully they will be excommunicated.

    Old Soul- you talk about emotional clubbing- what exactly do you mean.

    They play on emotions to achieve the desired results. In other words, they will offer underhanded comments that infer you aren't a good husband if you don't do things the way they say things should be done. It can make some people second-guess themselves. Even just raising the very idea is an abusive and twisted thing to do, in my opinion.

    The elders would fullfill spiritual guidence role. Surely the husband can say its none of their dam business. Thats a family matter.

    The husband can say whatever he wants. The wife attends 3 meetings a week without the husband and the elders DO NOT comply with direct instructions to leave the wife alone. I know that, firsthand.

    What effect does being made inactive have.

    One isn't made inactive, per se, one just becomes inactive. An inactive JW doesn't go from door-to-door and may or may not go to meetings. There is no rule saying that such a person is not to be associated with/talked to, but some JWs shun inactive JWs anyway—just to be on the safe side.

    How do JW look at Wordly people. Do they look down on them.Do they think they are superior in some way.Is it a slur.

    On the nose! First try, too. I am impressed. They look down on them, they consider themselves superior but they call it "more clean", and they use the term "worldly" as a derogatory slur. It can even be applied to Witnesses who are active but who some feel are not behaving appropriately or choosing wisely.

    Is translated simply a convertion created to enforce JW views.

    No, but it is largely to accomplish that purpose. Every questionable was stretched to its limits in English to reinforce JW dogma, and then the translated text (English term) is stretched as far as it will go as well.

    Does the watchtower mag take precedence over bible.

    Yes. In every case.

    How would elders know that holidays,xmas,birthdays ect are being recognised by family.

    Someone might see the wife buying decorations, or see evidence when visiting the home and ask question, or a child might brag about what they got for their birthday, etc. Any Witness who comes to know of it will feel duty-bound to report the infraction to the elders. It is obviously none of their business but that doesn't matter to them. They don't have control over celebration, they have control over disfellowshipping. Through fear of expulsion they exert emotional authority over all kinds of decisions.

    Who elect JW elders.

    Officially, the Governing Body. In reality, pretty much the Circuit Overseer and the local Body of Elders. The Governing Body usually does nothing mor than sign off on the appointment. And even then, I suspect it isn't the Governing Body itself that actually decides on each appointment.

    Again, I hope this is helpful.

    Respectfully,
    OldSoul

  • xjwms
    xjwms

    Welcome

    Looks like many questions have been answered.

    Please be careful with respects to your association.

  • M.J.
    M.J.

    Edited to add: (Old Soul can type faster than me, I guess--but here are my answers anyway!)

    In Ch of Scotland, people in authority are elected by congregation only. Who elect JW elders.

    They are appointed by the higher-ups in the organization, not elected. It used to be that they were elected but their appointment from up high is now seen as being more in line with a "theocracy"--Jehovah is at the top of the organization and his power flows downhill from there.

    How would elders know that holidays,xmas,birthdays ect are being recognised by family. Is it not something they have little control of.

    For the most part, members are strongly indoctrinated to self-regulate in this area. The rogues that do fit in a b-day or holiday are usually outed by another member who sees what's going on, or if they happen to see some decorations in the house. Members are taught that to not report a "sin" such as this is to share in it.

    Is the original bible recognised or simply the JW translated bible- and how near to original is it. Is translated simply a convertion created to enforce JW views.Does the watchtower mag take precedence over bible.

    The JW translated bible is the one seen as the most accurate to the original texts, but other bibles can be referenced. Other bibles are not looked at with trust, however. The JW bible routinely translates "problem" texts to best fit JW doctrine (or to minimize the damage to it).

    How do JW look at Wordly people. Do they look down on them.Do they think they are superior in some way.Is it a slur.

    Yes, JWs are quite judgemental of everyone, whether they come out and express it or not. They believe they should not be mixing company with those outside of the group. The entire world population outside of their group is ruled by Satan according to their doctrine.

    What effect does being made inactive have.

    People who just kind of fade away from their "duties" by default are inactive. It takes quite an emotional toll to fade away from the "safety" of the "Ark", for whatever reason one has for doing it. Usually an inactive person is extremely dogged with guilt for not having their act together with the Big J. Thus most inactive persons will say they'll get back on track "soon". I don't know what the congregation's attitude or actions are with respect to an inactive person however (my wife was inactive when I met her and is now active--I was never a JW).

    OldSoul said that the elders would fullfill spiritual guidence role. Surely the husband can say its none of their dam business. Thats a family matter.

    Elders usually don't care to worry about your business unless you go to them to ask them something, or if their on a witch hunt. The witch hunt includes whether or not one of their flock might be influenced to take a blood transfusion in the hospital. They'll flood the hospital with vigilance. This is one case where they'll intrude in your business to no end.

    Congregation powers - in my church the congregation is supreme and can decide everything. Surely the congregation in JW faith has some powers over the running of the church.

    I'm no expert in congregation powers but like I said, the rule is from the top down. Congregations have very little local control.

    Oldsoul says that only thru the organisation can god be spoken to by JW - Where in the bible do they get this assumption from. After all they were only invented about 1900.
    They invented this assumption. Basically, Jesus talks about the faithful slave who waits for his return in Matt 24:45, and that upon the return of the master, seeing that he has been faithfull he will appoint the slave over the household. The JWs take that parable and apply it to those who were in their organization at the time of Jesus' supposed "invisible" return from 1914-1919. Jesus supposedly inspected all religions at that time and selected this group of people as his "faithful discreet slave", appointing them as the head over Jehovah's earthly concerns. This special group of people are part of a particular class called "the anointed", and are represented by the heads of the WTS. So in effect, Christ appointed the WTS. From this doctrine the WTS secures its power as God's exclusive channel to mankind, and it's position as the only "true" religion, thereby condemning all others as "false religion" and "babylon the great".
  • dougpotts
    dougpotts

    Thanks to both oldsoul amd m.j. for their extensive replies. It has been very informative and has made me increasingly aware of the faith and all its ramifications.It greatly help me deal with a friendship with a JW.

    I wonder if I can further ask their help with a few more questions.

    Elders- what counter balance is there to control the abuse of power by the elder or elders. Say he is unmarried but attracted to a JW wife of non JW. As there is no control by congregation, what defence against does the wife have against that interest- or does she have to just accept that interest.

    Why does wife have to have separate meetings within church without husband. Is this not simply a device to separate the power and interest of the husband and to give the faith that power over her.The husband must wonder what the wife is saying to her faith in private and lead to lack of confidence in marriage.

    Confidence in the marriage must be shattered if the wife does report the husband. Can she be trusted by the husband again.

    Sometimes it must be very difficult for the elder to separate a domestic matter which they should not be part of and spiritual matters - there must be many grey areas. How does the elder ensure he is simply not poking into a private domestic situations

    Blood Transfussions- they sometimes talk about subdevides being acceptable- not whole blood.Is there a substitute available for them which makes the subject a non entity or is it really a case of life or death if you need a blood transfusion. How can a person kill his wife or children in the name of a simple paragraph in the bible which only talks about eating blood when you place it in context of the other reading in the parapgraph or does it usually not come to that.Is the spouse that unimportant to them when placed against the impotance of their faith.

    Maybe I should not be saying this but it does occur to me that the member of that church is entirlely acting with extreme selfish selfmotives - although a massive amount of church work is done, very little is heard of helping their fellowman eg voluntary work.Its all theretical biblical study. Their interest seems to be their own salvation and interest and ensuring the church expands nothing more. Similary with the problem with blood transfusions their interest lies in ensuring they conform to their faith and by implication their own salvation, as seen by their faith, of themselves rather than helping their family member survive. Maybe my thinking is distorted in some way.

    Doug

    What balance does the non JW husband have against a mischievious wife simply using the elders to get what she wants in the marriage. What confidence can the husband have in the marriage if he knows he can be reported on any matter by a wife.

    Doug

  • OldSoul
    OldSoul
    Elders- what counter balance is there to control the abuse of power by the elder or elders.

    Other elders. They police each other, too. At least, they are supposed to.

    Say he is unmarried but attracted to a JW wife of non JW. As there is no control by congregation, what defence against does the wife have against that interest- or does she have to just accept that interest.

    No. She does not have to accept such interest. In fact, she would be strongly encouraged to knee him in the groin and bloody his nose if he tried something like that. We are talking about abuse of power and authority in the context of religious oppression and repression of freedom of expression. No one would have physical authority over your JW wife.

    Why does wife have to have separate meetings within church without husband.

    You could go with her, but you would have to sit through JW meetings. I was saying that a non-JW husband would likely not waste his time at 3 meetings per week and riding around out in field service without being able to get out of the car unless they all stopped for a break.

    The husband must wonder what the wife is saying to her faith in private and lead to lack of confidence in marriage.

    Yes, I wonder what the elders and others in the congregation are saying to my wife that will lead her to a lack of confidence in our marriage. I have instructed the elders not to speak to my wife regarding our relationship and to ask her no questions about me or my activities. They have repeatedly failed to honor this demand.

    Confidence in the marriage must be shattered if the wife does report the husband. Can she be trusted by the husband again.

    I trust my wife implicitly. I also know her, thoroughly. I know they have deeply ingrained in her a sense of trust in the elders. When they ask her questions, she feels very uncomfortable answering them but she has been "programmed" to do so over many years of indoctrination. I still trust her, I don't fault her because I know where the vile source of the problem actually is.

    Sometimes it must be very difficult for the elder to separate a domestic matter which they should not be part of and spiritual matters - there must be many grey areas. How does the elder ensure he is simply not poking into a private domestic situations

    Elders don't trouble themselves to be certain they are not prying into things that are none of their business. Our sexual tastes have been asked about, our viewing habits (what programs/movies we watch), reading material, music—you name it.

    How can a person kill his wife or children in the name of a simple paragraph in the bible which only talks about eating blood when you place it in context of the other reading in the parapgraph or does it usually not come to that.Is the spouse that unimportant to them when placed against the impotance of their faith.

    Again,it is important to remember that their laws are enforced by threat of Disfellowship, which they equate with a "visible" sign of God's displeasure in their choices. When they began to allow blood fractions I don't know of a single Witness whose conscience failed to suddenly feel fine about accepting them. These Witnesses who believed "God would be displeased with them" for accepting fractions the week before, suddenly had no qualms of conscience about accepting fractions. The only explanation is that conscience is not, and never was, the deterrent at all. Fear of expulsion is the deterrent.

    To illustrate: A Witness believes a Disfellowshipped person will not be resurrected. Dying in a "disapproved" state is a Witness' worst fear. If a Witness male accepts a blood transfusion for his wife she may die anyway, in a "disapproved" state. He also will become "disapproved" through his action. If he were to die before regaining an "approved" state, he would die believing neither he nor his beloved wife would get a resurrection. So, the punishment of not getting everlasting life is used to batter, bruise, and beat the flock into submission to man-made traditions. This same construct applies to explain why Witnesses comply with anything else the Governing Body makes a law about.

    Their interest seems to be their own salvation and interest and ensuring the church expands nothing more. Similary with the problem with blood transfusions their interest lies in ensuring they conform to their faith and by implication their own salvation, as seen by their faith, of themselves rather than helping their family member survive.

    You are getting the correct idea. They say they are helping the community by teaching them about the Bible, but they teach very little of the Bible and a whole lot of man-made traditions and unscriptural doctrines. It seems like you are using "faith" and "religion" interchangably. I believe real "faith" is evident independent of a code of laws from a religious group. If that isn't the case, I don't think it is really "faith," it a false claim of faith.

    Maybe my thinking is distorted in some way.

    No. Your thinking is right on target.

    What balance does the non JW husband have against a mischievious wife simply using the elders to get what she wants in the marriage. What confidence can the husband have in the marriage if he knows he can be reported on any matter by a wife.

    It depends on the wife. In the Governing Body laws, there is no balance against the spiritual authority of the elders for a JW husband, so there would obviously be none for a non-JW husband. The confidence would have to be in the person (the wife) and from that there might be reason for strong confidence in the marriage (as in my case, but I'm a lucky son-of-a-...gun). But if you marry someone who is a JW and who wants to remain a JW you can expect that the elders/Governing Body may hold sway over her thinking and behavior in many areas.

    The elders have NO authority over a non-JW husband, but can heavily influence the success or failure—the delight or misery—of a marriage nonetheless through the exercise of spiritual authority over a JW wife.

    Again, I hope this helps.

    Respectfully,
    OldSoul

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    LOL Old Soul and M.J. you respond so fast and so thoroughly, DougPotts thinks I am some kind of weird cheerleader hanger-on! Great replies.

  • jeeprube
    jeeprube

    Looks like you've been given some excellent advice already. I would just add.....don't give up merely because she's a JW. Love conquers all. You never know what may happen.

  • M.J.
    M.J.

    on the other hand--take it from me--you also don't want to get yourself into an impossible situation. Don't think you can waltz in and sweep her away from the organization without a total, obsessive and relentless, effort on your part (most often covertly)--perhaps for years...and then there are still no guarantees. It's your call.

  • carla
    carla

    Also check out the thread running now under 'An Update' she is in a similar situation as you.

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