And the Word was with God

by Narkissos 70 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • LittleToe

    Though it's not directly in the context of the initial comments, there's a stream of thought that three points are a minimum required to triangulate anything.

    While there might be two expressing love to each other, it takes a third to objectify that love as an independantly verified reality.

    Without a third there can be "I", "me" and "you", but no "they".

  • Abaddon

    In the begining Grease was the Word, was the Word that you heard, it's got groove it's got meaning.

    1 BeeGees 2:1-2

    Of course, this is a translation. Due to the lack of the definate article it could be rendered

    In the begining Grease was a Word, was a Word that you heard, they've got groove it's got meaning.

    Of course, English has a simpler grammatical structure, so an even closer translation would be

    Begining Grease word was, was word [heard by you], [possesing in itself] syncopated movement and definition
    Anyhow, I always thought Ho Ho Theos was the Greek version of Santa...
  • Hellrider

    Ha ha! (and I don`t even like disco...)

  • Cygnus

    The Psalm says, "By the word (Gr. LXX "logos") of Jehovah the heavens and earth were made."

    It was not uncommon in Jewish thought that what resided in God's mind, or his purpose, became manifest as destiny allowed. Thus Paul speaks of the church being foreordained before the world was, and the Christian reward stored up in the heavens, etc.

    With that in mind, and Tyndale's recognition that the pronoun for the logos is neuter, i.e. "the world was made by it", I can see an argument made that the Logos was not human until it became a human being, cf. Jn 1:14. Epecially considering that the Messiah or this logos was never described as already alive in the OT but was prophecied to be a man like Moses.

    That's what CoG Abramahic Faith (Atlanta Bible College) and their prolific writer Anthony Buzzard teaches, as well as the Christadelphians for over a century, and the anabaptists had such ideas going well before that as I believe.

  • Midget-Sasquatch

    I'm going to spin off of Narkissos and Origen....and throw in some gnostic overtones to add some heretical variety:

    God is found by "the face to face", or more specifically, the divinity of the Logos was brought out by the intimate relationship that it sought with God. In the interacting, it became identical to God in nature. It seems that a surer way for good, just or godly (if you will) things to occur in our material sphere is for individuals to do them towards each other, and actively move towards doing them, rather than passively waiting on the side for god to show up and make it all better. There may also be the nifty possibility of simutaneuosly refining the latent divinity (if any) within ourselves in that process.

  • Leolaia

    Narkissos....Here's an idea. Does the phrase pros ton theon occur at all in the LXX, Philo, other sources, and what is the entity that has this relationship (adversarial or proximal) with God?

  • RubaDub

    the Logos as a "he"... was he before, in front of "God," as Wisdom was (Proverbs 8 etc.), facing Him and reflecting Him? Then, both the same and the opposite, as a mirror image or an imprint (Hebrews 1:3)?

    think of those mirrows in some bathrooms that are angled on the sides. By looking toward the side, you can actually see your back.

    So in this case, the Lagos could be before God, or in front of God, but actually be looking at an angle, perhaps 45 degrees or so. However, he would technically be in front or him, reflecting Him and facing Him at the same time. In fact, if God were also facing at a 45 degree angle toward the other side of the mirrow, they would be at a 90 degree angle to each other and yet be able to see each other in the front and the back at the same time.

    So yes, his being before, in front of God while facing and reflecting Him would be appropriate.

    Rub a Dub

  • Narkissos

    MS, metamorphosis through theoria (contemplation) is a very old idea:

    And all of us, with unveiled faces, seeing the glory of the Lord as though reflected in a mirror, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord, the Spirit.
    when he is revealed, we will be like him, for we will see him as he is. And all who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.

    And the emphasis on seeing the Son as seeing the Father throughout the Fourth Gospel...

  • Hellrider

    I`m just wondering, what about this, then:

    John 1:3 All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created

    ...I can understand that ...the Word was a reflection of God, and that it was with God in the beginning ... and I can even take the idea that they kind of "melt together" ... but the Word is clearly stated as a creation. So God creates the Word by "looking in the mirror", in a way? Is that what you`re saying?

  • Narkissos


    Does the phrase pros ton theon occur at all in the LXX, Philo, other sources, and what is the entity that has this relationship (adversarial or proximal) with God?

    The LXX is the only searchable Greek text I have on my present computer. By a quick review the occurrences reflect what I suggested in my initial post: pros + acc. is mostly used with verbs of speech; other occurrences suggest a religious/ritual coming/acting to/before God. Moses is the top but far from exclusive subject. Antagonism is a minoritary though not isolated case.

    speak/talk to/before God Gen 17:18; Ex 3:11,13; 19:23; Num 22:10; Jdg 6:36,39; 1 Ch 21:8,17; 2 Ch 1:8
    speak against God Num 21:5
    pray to/before God Gen 20:17; Exo 8:25f; 10:18; Deu 9:26; 2Ch 33:18; Est 1:1th;10:3z; 29:9; Jdt 11:17; 2Ma 15:27; 2Es 12:4;14:3
    cry to/before God 2Sa 22:7; 1Ch 5:20; Psa 17:7; 54:17; 56:3; 76:2; Jon 1:5; 3:8; Jdt 4:9,12; 4:12; 5:12; 10:1; Bar 4:21,27; Pss 1:1
    cry heard before/by God Exo 2:23
    bringing people's cases to/before God, Exo 18:19b; 19:8
    lift one's hands to/before God Mic 2:1
    lift one's eyes to/before God 4Ma 6:26
    swear to/before God Gen 14:22
    thirst for/before God Psa 41:3
    joy before God (/before the altar) Psa 43:4
    fear before/of God 4Ma 15:8
    faith before/in God 4Ma 16:22
    endurance before/for God 4Ma 17:4
    approach to/before God (notably Moses), Exo 19:21,24; 24:2; 32:30; 1Sa 10:3; 14:36; Psa 77:34; Isa 30:29; Hos 12:6; Zep 3:2
    come back to God Hos 5:4
    (spirit) comes back to God Ec 12:7
    gather before/against God (Qorah and his company) God Num 16:11
    Being bitter/rebellious against God Deu 31:27
    Oppose against God, Hos 14:1

    The abstract substantive ta pros ton theon (that which refers to God) occurs in Exo 4:16 (breaking the Hebrew parallelism and avoiding to say that Moses is "God to Aaron"); 18:19a.

    No occurrences with eimi (which suits the particular case of the logos in the Johannine Prologue). No use of pros + acc. related to God in the best OT Wisdom passages (Proverbs 8; Job 28; Sirach 24; Wisdom 7) -- on the other hand people are called to come pros sophian. Of course the search might be extended to pros theon, pros (ton) kurion etc.

    A similar search in Philo might be interesting...

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