by Honesty 74 Replies latest jw friends
Qcmbr,
I agree, it is interesting. They had to be baptized by water in Jesus name, but they had already received the Holy Ghost. Prior to baptism. This shows that the relationship with God is irrespective of a relationship to any organization or specific church. Cornelius' family had no such affiliations.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
I totally agree - you'd be bonkers to get baptised if you didn't believe and have a relationship with God. It'd be like signing a mortgage on a house you never looked at.
So was Cornelius a Christian before his baptism?
I agree with old soul on that . I don't think large buildings are important as truth or love . It wouldn't matter to me if I worshipped in a tent in a pasture somewhere as long as I had the truth and love . I don't know where you are going with the clothing issue , I don't think there is any particular dress code involved other than not to fashion yourself after the world and to be modest in what you wear. IMO
OK - I'll concede Cornelius was a christian (maybe a proto-christian:) - he just wasn't 'saved' but by that token maybe we are all 'christians' in that God has a relationship with everyone even if they don't recognise it.
Mark 16:15 - 16
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
1 Peter 3:20 - 21
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
..and afterwards there as still a law of commandments
Matthew 28:19 - 20
19 ¶ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen
How, then, did he receive the Holy Spirit if he wasn't "saved"? Does God make mistakes?
Narkissos
In view of the above a different paradigm might be offered. Another theologian (François Vouga) once proposed approximately the following: to be a Christian is to be ultimately concerned and affected by the character and story of Jesus-Christ. Belief in God or in an afterworld might be quite secondary to that. What do you think?
Sorry - been away a few days & just caught this. Very interesting. When I quoted the line about creator God, there was an element of question in my mind about what this means and whether it is fundamental to Christianity. I'll have to think and research on that one. As for the Vouga suggestion; I don't think I can accept such a loose definition that I consider the Greek Christian scriptures goes beyond what he describes. Perhaps I should get out my red letter NT to study Christ's own teaching. From your knowledge of Jesus Christ, from the NT, what do you think he would list as the fundamentals of the religion that bears his name?
Ross,
Why do I get the distinct feeling that you and I are destined for tag-teams of epic proportion? LOL
Respectfully,
OldSoul
Apologies if it looks like I'm purely talking to LT. Oh heck... I am ...sorry!
LT - Loaded question - does God make mistakes?
A mistake suggests that there was a better way to do something. I think that's a whole different thread that would potentially be a christians v aethiests thread :)
Does receiving the Holy Spirit entail being saved? Well I do think I've quoted reams of scriptures that say that we have to do something about our faith (theres a scripture which talks about baptism being required for being saved.) So assuming that your question means: ignoring all the quoted scriptures so far, does having the Holy Ghost mean you are saved?
Let's have a look.
Acts 5:32
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
Acts 19:2 - 6
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Matthew 28:19 - 20
19 ¶ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
looks like one interpretation of this scripture is a need for water and the spirit. It does seem to go hand in hand - baptism by water and then baptism of Holy Ghost.
I've done some searches looking for scriptures which include the word saved and ghost / spirit and I got this one:
Titus 3:5
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which backs up what I said (works don't save us) but mentions baptism (washing of regeneration?) and the Holy Ghost making us born again (renewing?) is required for the saving power to be made manifest.
I'll quote LDS doctrine here just to be indulgent:
Articles of Faith 1:3 - 4
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
I guess our point of disagreement is on the 3rd and 4th ordinaces - baptism and Holy Ghost by laying on of hands. I presume we are both in agreement on 1 and 2.
From your knowledge of Jesus Christ, from the NT, what do you think he would list as the fundamentals of the religion that bears his name?
Difficult question. Our idea of Jesus Christ results from the combination of several NT portraits. So leaving aside the fairly undecidable question of the "historical Jesus," I would propose:
(1) The "Q" Jesus (from the teachings common to Matthew and Luke) would insist that we do what he said -- however radical and unpractical that may seem. Stop judging, become like children, love our enemies, don't resist evil, forsake our belongings and family perhaps, stop worrying for the future, trust in God/heavens for the necessities of life, expect the kingdom of God/heavens. This is not a question of belief, rather faith in the basic sense of trust -- and action. His person, his death and resurrection are unimportant. Btw he didn't see himself as the founder of a new religion -- rather a prophet/philosopher within Judaism.
(2) The Pauline-Markan Jesus would insist more on faith in him as the god-man and in redemption through his death and resurrection, uniting ourselves to him through faith and sacraments.
(3) The Johannine Jesus would expect that by looking at him as the very revelation of the Father we realise our divine origin and behave accordingly -- loving one another within the specific group of the children of God who acknowledge that they are not from this world, and remaining "in Him".
Any religion that bears Jesus' name has to deal with this NT diversity, and any synthesis is bound to betray part of it I guess.
