I'd say it's not up to a publishing corporation to say when enough is enough . The new testament does say you cannot count on works as your salvation but rather faith and grace . To boast in yourself is not recomended . Humility is highly recommended. Jesus did say that there are works involved in order to receive his grace such as the preaching and conversion work . That's why he had so many parables about working in a vinyard for instance . The parable about giving servants a coin and the one servant that buried the coin was just as condemned as the one that spent it frivelously where as the one that showed a profit was given a great reward .IMO
Real Christians.....
by Honesty 74 Replies latest jw friends
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Qcmbr
I am saying that the apostles did worship and keep the commandments.
The apostles got baptised, prayed regularly, met together to eat the bread and partake the wine, they organised churches. They showed their faith by their works. What on earth do you think Jesus was saying when He said - except a man be born of the water and of the spirit he can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God?
I don't think there is any mileage in removing the commandments and sacraments and then claiming that you have faith left - faith without works is dead being alone. Faith is obedience to what we have been asked to do, not discarding with abandon any structure or ordinance. On the flip side if you live the commandments and have not the spirit nor are truly converted its the same, works without faith is dead.
Which part of the commandments that LDS live did the apostles not live?
Baptism, gift of Holy Ghost given by priesthood, sacrament(bread and wine), washing feet of apostles, sabbath observance, prayer, tithing / consecration?
I guess my point is - is it possible to claim that you fulfill - 'if ye love me keep my commandments' and be a christian if you don't keep the commandments. If the answer is no then the commandments and the sacraments are required of a christian if the answer is that its possible to love God but not live any of the commandments then I guess we are all saved no matter what we do as long as we love God - no need for repentance.
Yes God is your Daddy whatever you do but when my kids don't do what I say I send them to their room. -
heathen
I think moses summed up the commandments as, Do unto others as you would have others do unto you, just as jesus did . Jesus himself only gave 2 commandments and that was love your neighbor as yourself and jehovah your God with all your heart mind and soul . I do get tired of the fundies trying to create a justice system based on thier religous beliefs tho . Personally I don't have involvement with religion at this time but do believe the bible message I just don't like the religions .
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LittleToe
Heathen / Q:
You're completely entitled to hold those views. I'm not arguing against that, or trying to convince you otherwise. All I'm doing is presenting my own opinion on the subject.
In this case my opinion is simply that "saving grace" is a gift. How do you earn that? Can you have it taken away? Surely a gift is a gift, neither earned nor repossessed? In the case of us acknowledging "saving grace" in appreciating our connection with the "Divine", is that something that God withholds if we're naughty?
Methinks that there are two distinct things here, that may be getting muddled. Salvation, which is of grace (a gift - "saving grace") by faith alone, and the continuing "means of grace" which strengthen and encourage us along the way. Which may be enlarged or withheld, according to our intent and actions, for "if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons".
I would therefore differentiate "saving grace" from continuing light and favour, which might be withheld in a "go to your room" manner. Further, in the light of James words about works, I would wholeheartedly suggest that they should be spontaneous. If we are reading James and then constructing a checklist of things we ought to be doing, where is the love of God in that?? What one of us can fulfill it perfectly? Surely grace makes up the lack, no matter how far we fall? However our intent is paramount, and our relationship essential. Two laws sum up the rest...
Following on from Heathen's points about publishing companies and religions, I would concur that no-one has the right to declare that another is not the recipient of such grace. It is intimate and personal.
Q:On a more personal note, in answer to your question about your own denomination, the LDS have added a whole pile of "necessary" shyte like holy undergarments and Masonic ordinances - support THAT one from scripture, if you can...
Further, who did Peter and the others receive the Holy Ghost from? Who did Joseph Smith allegedly receive Him from? Are you so closed minded as to declare that no other individual is likely to have received such a gift? Are the LDS literally the only body of worshippers today that have God's blessing in the form of a Priesthood? Try to keep a smug smile off your face as you avoid that one...
...I would declare my opinion that every man/woman/child born of the Holy Ghost is a priest. Further, it's not limited to any denomination or sect, but "the wind bloweth where it listeth".
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heathen
Well interesting thoughts there LT . Too bad I can't agree with it . True, grace is a free gift and man cannot be saved by works but by obedience . Jesus said the only ones he considered his mother , brother or sister are those that did his will .I don't think it right to say you can live a life of debauchery and expect grace at the time christ arrives in kingdom power . It is a very hard thing to argue because you are right a free gift is a free gift . In the bible there are many that received the free gift of holy spirit yet misused it for personal gain and such that they only wound up condemning themselves . Like I said before there are parables in which jesus said he would not give grace such as the 10 virgins that try to enter the marriage feast when he arrives and they do not have oil for their lamps so he rejects them . There is the evil slave that is thrown in with the hipocrytes . I think that the idea is to not practice sin so it would even require work to do that , like the apostle Paul wrote so much about .The soul that is sinning will die . He considered that there was only so much blood from christs sacrifice to cover sin and at a certain point that blood or (grace) cannot cover it .
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Qcmbr
Hiya LT - fair enough - I don't want you to feel I'm digging on your beliefs.
Lots of necessary cr*p for Mormon 'madness':
(New Testament | Acts 21:26)
26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 9:13)
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the alter are partakers with the alter?
(New Testament | Revelation 7:13 - 15)
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
(New Testament | Matthew 21:12 - 14)
12 ΒΆ And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.
Clothing:
(Old Testament | Exodus 28:1 - 4)
1 AND take thou unto thee Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office, even Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, Aaron's sons.
2 And thou shalt make holy garments for Aaron thy brother for glory and for beauty.
3 And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
4 And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
(New Testament | Revelation 3:4 - 5)
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
(New Testament | Revelation 6:11)
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
(New Testament | Revelation 16:15)
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Looks to me like the temple and temple clothing are pretty important. -
OldSoul
Qcmbr,
I've met lots of christians who claimed that there was no need for any of the sacraments etc.., no need for structure all that was needed was being born-again in the spirit and thereafter they were saved. The thief on the cross was used very frequently to illustrate this instantaneous single point in time - the'saved' moment.
Add the conversion of Cornelius and his family to your list, so that we might have two witnesses.
Respectfully,
OldSoul -
OldSoul
Qcmbr,
Jesus and Paul both referred to the body as a temple.
OldSoul
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Qcmbr
Interesting end to the Cornelius conversion:
(New Testament | Acts 10:47 - 48)
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. -
Qcmbr
..but clearly the context of Revelations is not talking about a body but a physical place? I think the concept is quite clear - a temple is a the House of God and if you are filled with the Spirit then you are also a temple.
It is sad (IMO) that only a few religions still use temples.