I have alot of questions

by MrsBee 39 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  AlmostAtheist

  He said to me one time, you know me, u think I would join something I didnt research thouroughly ? If he would have researched like I did, he would have NEVER stepped into another KH..

  JW's are absolutely convinced that they HAVE researched it thoroughly. They even believe they've researched other religions. Trouble is, their "research" is invariably limited to their own literature, and encyclopedias used to prove some minutia on which they base huge dogma. ("Christmas is pagan, just check the encyclopedia!")

  So your hubby probably sincerely believes that he's done his research and has proven to himself that JW's are the one true religion and that their Governing Body ("Faithful and Discreet Slave") is the agent Jesus is using to govern his church.

  Interestingly, part of their dogma states that anyone that used to be a JW and now doesn't agree with them is "apostate", part of the "evil slave", and listening to anything people like that say is tantamount to looking at pornography. They even call it "spiritual pornography". So they completely shield faithful JW's from ever hearing the reasoning of those that have left.

  I assume your hubby is trying to get reinstated? Perhaps it would be helpful to have him explain from the Bible what the procedure is to get reinstated? There is terribly scant mention of it in the Bible, so he won't be able to support it. Perhaps that will get him thinking about it. (It caught my attention when I was DF'd and trying to get back in. Didn't get me out, but it definitely got me thinking.)

  Dave
• 

  Joel Wideman

  Welcome, MrsBee.
  "Why do they think that people who get excited in church, raise their hands up, sing loud and are happy are not genuine, he always says that they are showing off"
  Imagine, if you will, that you believe that you - and you alone - are granted God's love. How do you reconcile this with the obvious enthusiasm demonstrated by others who claim the same thing, especially when you yourself don't feel so moved?
  It's the lie I told myself for years, too.
• 

  AlmostAtheist

  When I first exited the JW's, I wrote up a discussion of their birthday doctrine and why it was not founded on the Bible or logic. I used it as a basis for discussion with my JW father-in-law. He couldn't answer any of the issues raised on it, he only said, 'The faithful and discreet slave has determined that birthday celebrations are not pleasing to Jehovah, so I won't do it.' In other words, they told me not to, so I don't, even though the Bible has nothing to say about it. OK, whatever.

  Here's the write up, hopefully you can use it somehow. I doubt a head-on confrontation over the issue would be helpful, but maybe you could subtly ask about "why no birthdays?" and point-by-point question him into a corner. He'll either have to admit it simply isn't a Bible teaching, or he'll have to play the F&DS card like my father-in-law did.

  http://thebentinel.com/jw-birthdays.html

  Good luck!

  Dave
• 

  jgnat

  First steps for the "Unbelieving Mate"

  1. Don't get mad about the whole cult thing to his face, or confront directly. This will immediately put you in Satan's camp and he will stop listening to your reasoned arguments.

  2. Get Steven Hassan's "Combatting Cult Mind Control." There you will learn about Cognitive Dissonance and the "cult persona" versus the real person underneath. http://www.freedomofmind.com/

  3. Concentrate on talking to the man you married, don't bother arguing with the "cult persona".

  4. Appeal to his sense of fair play, and keep as many outside interests and friendships alive as possible. This inserts normalcy in to your life.

  5. Do some deep thinking about what attracted your hubby to this group in the first place. This great need will be your ticket to get him out, because the Watchtower Society is big on promises but very short on delivery. Eventually, eventually he will see this for himself. Unfortunately, many JW's remain with the society even after being betrayed because they have already invested so much effort.

  Doing a few things right at the beginning can save you acres of agony. Crisis of Conscience doesn't have such an impact on those who were never JW's. It is best left out for your hubby when he is on the edge of leaving the society. This book was the clincher for many exiting JW's on their way out of the society.

  They Don't Believe in Fate?

  Nope. That's pagan worship. Fortuna was the Roman goddess of Luck. http://www.pantheon.org/articles/f/fortuna.html?esc

  The Watchtower society claims to be the source of all happiness for their followers. Everyone else in the world is supposed to be unhappy.

  Why do they not participate in their communities?

  Because we are all worldly pagans.

  Why is it that they portray GOD as this evil vindictive presence where if you dont do what he wants you are doomed to death, but doesnt believe that he teaches you lessons because he is a loving GOD who would never want you to hurt?

  The Watchtower society, like abusive individuals, teaches that their strict discipline is a "loving provision of Jehovah"

  TM . "I only do this because I love you" beat, beat.

  Havent they been using that the world is getting bad/worse since their inception??

  Yes. That is why JW's love watching the evening news.

  How can he be married to me and love me as much as he does and not think about that if youre not a JW youre not going to survive Armageddon. Is he not worried about that?

  Actually, you have a chance at being reconstituded and in the beautiful new world you will first be offered a book study. No worries, it will only last a thousand years or so, and at the end of it you will be happy to smile vacantly upon the idyllic pastoral scene, sipping your iced tea, picking fruit, and petting lions, with the rest of them.

  He always says to me that your conscience is your bible based knowledge, do all of them think that??

  Yes, their conscience is all written down for them in the Watchtower literature, which is all bible-based TM of course. Except for the odd time they go beyond what is written.
• 

  MrsBee

  I assume your hubby is trying to get reinstated? Perhaps it would be helpful to have him explain from the Bible what the procedure is to get reinstated? There is terribly scant mention of it in the Bible, so he won't be able to support it. Perhaps that will get him thinking about it. (It caught my attention when I was DF'd and trying to get back in. Didn't get me out, but it definitely got me thinking.)

  I asked him that a while ago and he said he doesnt know if thats what he wants. I know that he is still angry at how he was treated by some guys in one KH that he attended. Long story short one of his "brothers" offered to get him a job and help him get to a from work, then after a month or so, they guy just stopped coming to give hubby a ride and started going around the KH sayin that he (my hubby) didnt appreciate the transportation, started talking poop about him at the job etc.. About a month after that I think he was dfed (for something different) and he asked an Elder what he had to do to get reinstated and get back in good with them and the elder told him - You should have thought about that before you did what u did- WOW..he said that he was thinking in his head, I wasnt brought up in this how am I supposed to know if noone tells me.... anyways, he always says he will never go back to that particular KH, but to me its whatever. I wondered how could you

  consciencely go back to anyone/thing that basically gives people the right to treat you less than a human, no eye contact, no speaking to you just because you didnt do what they wanted how they wanted. He breaks out some bible verse saying that he deserved it I forgot what it says, it says something to the effect of how it was ok for them (other congregation members) to treat him that way but I would think that Jesus' way of loving everyone and not turning anyone away would supercede treating someone less than human..

  Just MPO though...
• 

  OldSoul

  There is no question what Jesus' choice would be:

  John 9:18-23 -- However, the Jews did not believe concerning him that he had been blind and had gained sight, until they called the parents of the man that gained sight. And they asked them: "Is this YOUR son who YOU say was born blind? How, then, is it he sees at present?" Then in answer his parents said: "We know that this is our son and that he was born blind. But how it is he now sees we do not know, or who opened his eyes we do not know. ASK him. He is of age. He must speak for himself." His parents said these things because they were in fear of the Jews, for the Jews had already come to an agreement that, if anyone confessed him as Christ, he should get expelled from the synagogue. This is why his parents said: "He is of age. QUESTION him."

  It is clear, the man risked expulsion from the Synagogue (disfellowshipping) for confessing Jesus as Christ. As soon as he was disfellowhipped, Jesus sought him out to invite him to put faith in Jesus, thus sparking the conversation that eventually led to Jesus explaining to the Pharisees that he had sheep that weren't Jews (John 10:16). This man was accepted by Jesus after being rejected by the earthly organization of that day.

  Very interesting.

  Respectfully,
  OldSoul
• 

  AlmostAtheist

  he always says he will never go back to that particular KH, but to me its whatever. I wondered how could you consciencely go back to anyone/thing that basically gives people the right to treat you less than a human, no eye contact, no speaking to you just because you didnt do what they wanted how they wanted.

  JW's believe that their DF'ing is Jehovah's will. It is His decision that you be DF'd, his rules of shunning that cause everyone to ignore you. They believe it is all a "loving discipline" from God. <shudder at the thought that I believed it too!>

  It sounds like your hubby may be ripe to learn some truth about JW's. He's been burned, and that's a turning point for some. Can he show you from the Bible what he was DF'd for? They "forbid" many things that do not have any sound scriptural basis.

  Dave
• 

  MrsBee

  Thanks Dave, OldSoul and Jgnat!!

  I said it before and Ill say it again :) - This has helped me keep my sanity!!!!!

  Jgnat - I read through your post and I have to remember to not let some of my "ways" get in the way, like how antagonistic I can be if I believe I am being forced to do something I dont want to do.. I will check up on that book you receommended as well!!!

  Dave - I saved that verse that you posted
• 

  Check_Your_Premises

  MrsBee,

  Welcome to the world of the UBM "unbelieving mate". Unfortunately most people have no idea what a huge deal it is when they are dating someone who says, "I used to be a jw, but I don't want to be anymore". Little does the ubm know, but what is before them is actually a person with a disease that is likely only in remission and only waiting for a life altering, doubt inducing event to make it go active.

  The disease is jw-itis. It is characterized by the belief that the JW are God's organization. Anybody who believes this is a jw whether they are a member or not. All their insanity stems from that belief. Your ultimate goal is to help him remove that belief. Once that is accomplished you must remove all the fears implanted in your husband that are associated with that belief. You might want to determine his degree of jw-itis. Ask him on a scale from 1 to 10, how sure he is that the jw are the right religion.

  I am very glad you are here. This is a very confusing experience for you, and without some folks telling you where the potholes are you are going to make alot of mistakes. You have already been given some great advice to keep you busy. There is not to much I would want to add, except to talk about defense. Dubs think they have the truth, so if you don't agree with it you are either ignorant (you don't know the truth) or dishonest (you don't want to know the truth). You are better off being ignorant. Ignorance can be fixed. Dishonest means you are evil. This is why everyone tells you not to attack the org. Ask questions yes, but do not say anything that sounds like you think the jw are bad.

  Are you a Christian? This is the best place to be, because you have many areas you can emphasize as having in common with your jw husband. It is also a great benefit to you, because it means you have faith that this experience is ultimately in God's hands. It is very comforting to be able to think of this experience in those terms. You are going to be challenged very hard as a Christian. However seriously you take your faith, you are going to have to take it just as seriously now. You don't have to agree with your husband on everything, but you will need to be able to demonstrate that any reason you have for disagreeing with the jw is because of a matter of your own conscience.

  Here is a post I put up on building trust. Trust is the single most important part of your relationship with him. Without it, all your other efforts will fail. There is never a bad time to build up the trust. It's like to much money, there is no such thing.

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/7/88762/1.ashx

  Enough advice. Now I just want to impart to you the seriousness of the situation. It isn't easy to see. Your marriage is in danger. If he makes the jw a part of his life it is going to consume a great deal of his time away from you. It will change how he feels about you, because he will at times imagine you to be evil for not being a dub. Also it will change how you feel about him. Many ubms associate the experience to infidelity. This type of infidelity cuts especially deep for a woman. I find woman ubm's have a very difficult time keeping their anger in check, and thus get themselves stuck in the "dishonest" category instead of the "ignorant". I posted a tribute to them here. The only thing I can tell you is to try not take it personal. The guy that is acting like a jack-ass is not your husband, but rather a cult personality imposed on him.

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/7/98039/1683652/post.ashx#1683652

  This is a very difficult experience. You are going to have to decide what you are prepared to do, and you are going to have to answer the question that haunts all ubms, "At what point do I leave my loved one to their self-induced prison and get on with my life?" Also in the jw world, the man is the head, so your opinions are not as important as his. If you have children, he will expect to raise them as witnesses. What that means is that they will not be able to think for themselves, rather they will be expected to turn their conscience and life over to the collective.

  There is hope though. Many here have helped awaken their jw spouses. Ithinkisee recently got his wife to walk away with him. There are many here at all stages of the process. Just realize now that the cost may be very high.

  Until you get your bearings, ASK EVERYONE HERE BEFORE YOU DO OR SAY ANYTHING!!!!

  Take care. I will pray for you. I hope you do the same. If you have any questions, feel free to pm me or ask me here. Also listen to Jgnat, Will Power, and carla.
• 

  MrsBee

  Oh My Gah! Thanks sooo much Check!!

  My husband does have the itis

  Thank you for welcoming me

  Yes I would say Im a Christian or at least on my way to being a better one - the one thing that these Trials and Tribs did get me to do was read the bible..I swear if it wasnt for the calm that I felt after starting to read the bible, I wouldnt be having our son nor would I probably still be married, he still has NOT gone back to KH, he does talk about going alot, he is starting to have some guilt ..

  I will keep these articles close

  and THANKS ro offering to help

  I wil probably get a little upset when/if he goes back but I will deifinitely come here before I do ANYTHING!!!