Is Michael the Archangel really Jesus?

by twinkletoes 84 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    An easy belief to hold if you don't believe that Jesus is Lord (eg.for jws)

    But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you."

    Paduan,

    This has no bearing on the identity of Michael. Use of the word Lord is a common expression that applies to individuals of importance or rank. It is a title of honor and is used of Jesus as such. If you can produce a text that says LORD Jesus then you would have a case. Such use of the word LORD in all caps is derived from an entirely different word, the name of the true God in fact. Do you have such evidence?

    Joseph

  • AllAlongTheWatchtower
    AllAlongTheWatchtower

    "He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him."—1 Peter 3:22. This article actually contradicts itself, though they obviously don't realize it. The 'He" is in reference to jesus. This passage says jesus was given authority over angels at his ascension.

    Hence, it is reasonable to conclude that Jehovah God has delegated to one, and only one, of his heavenly creatures full authority over all other angels. This line is in reference to Michael; an attempt to explain their theory. According to all they say in the previous text, the archangel Michael already had power over all the angels. Why would jesus have to be given this power if he already had it as Michael?!

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    In Jewish angelology of the post-exilic period, there were several archangels, usually numbered at four or seven (cf. Tobit 12:15, 1 Enoch 20, 4QShirShabb, 1QM 9:15-16, Testament of Levi 8:2, 3 Enoch 17:1, Numbers Rabba 2:10, Pirqe R. El. 4, etc.). These usually included Uriel, Raphael, Reuel, Michael, Gabriel, Sariel, and Remiel (= Jeremiel). The NT almost certainly draws on this concept of a plurality of archangels, dependent as Jude is on 1 Enoch and the Testament of Moses, for instance (cf. also Revelation 8:2).

    BTW, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 does not indicate that the Lord has the voice of an archangel, it says that the coming of Christ will occur during a "shout of an archangel" and "trumpet call". The preposition en "in, at" here (en phóné arkhangelou kai en salpingi theou "at the voice of an archangel and God's trumpet") either indicates attendant circumstance (compare 1 Corinthians 4:21) or "at the time of" as in the parallel text in 1 Corinthians 15:52: "We shall all be changed; this will be instantaneous, in a twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet (en rhipé ophthalmou, en té eskhaté salpingi). The parallel between the two passages in both content and grammar (that is, two consecutive en-phrases, the second of which pertains to the Last Trumpet sounding forth the resurrection) suggests strongly that the "archangel's voice" indicates the situation and time during which the advent and resurrection occurs.

    The archangel involved in the resurrection in Jewish tradition is Jeremiel. According to 1 Enoch 20:8, Remiel is "put in charge of those who will rise" and 4 Ezra 4:26 portrays "Jeremiel the archangel" as supervising the "souls of the righteous in the chambers" of Hades, and who explains that the coming resurrection will be like a woman giving birth (cf. Ramael in 2 Baruch 55-76). The Apocalypse of Zephaniah similarly mentions "the great angel Eremiel who is over the abyss and Hades, the one in which all of the souls are imprisoned until this day" (6:15), and ch. 9-12 depict a "great angel" (possibly Eremiel) sounding the trumpet to herald the coming wrath of God and announce the triumph of the righteous ones by "escaping from the abyss and Hades" (9:1-2). The trumpet call motif is found in other apocalyptic sources (cf. 4 Ezra 6:23, Revelation 8:2, Sibylline Oracles 4.174, Didache 16:6), and some late Christian sources identity the archangel who blows the Last Trumpet as Gabriel (Questions of Ezra, B.11). Michael is pictured as sounding his trumpet in Apocalypse of Moses 22:1-3 to announce God's entrance into the Garden of Eden to bring judgment on Adam and Eve, while other angels were described blowing trumpets during the attack of the Babylonians on Jerusalem in 4 Baruch 3:2, 4:1.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    BTW, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 does not indicate that the Lord has the voice of an archangel, it says that the coming of Christ will occur during a "shout of an archangel" and "trumpet call". Leolaia, While this is taught by some it does not mean that our Lord’s voice is not also included in this voice described by Paul. This is because a multitude of other voices are implied and included here and for this reason some say: Barnes notes: with a shout; the word here used is observed by many to signify such a noise or shout as is made either by mariners, when they pull and row together; and shout to direct and encourage one another; or to an army with the general at the head of it, when about to undertake some considerable action, to enter on a battle, and make the onset; Christ will now appear as the King of kings, and Lord of lords, as the Judge of the whole earth, attended with the host, or armies of heaven, and the shout of a king will be among them: perhaps the same is intended, as by the voice of a great multitude, as the voice of many waters, and of mighty thunderings upon the coming of Christ, the destruction of antichrist, and the marriage of the Lamb, in #Re 19:1,6,7,14,15. The Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Ethiopic versions render it, "in," or "with command"; and the Arabic version, "with his own government," or "authority"; that is, he shall descend, either by the command of his Father, as man and Mediator, having authority from him, as the son of man, to execute judgment; or with his commanding power and authority over the mighty angels, that shall descend with him: it follows, with the voice of the archangel; so Michael is called, in #Jude 1:9 with which compare #Re 12:7 and who perhaps is no other than Christ himself, who is the head of all principality and power; and the sense be, that Christ shall descend from heaven with a voice, or shall then utter such a voice, as will show him to be the archangel; or as the Syriac version renders it, "the head," or "prince of angels"; and which whether, it will be an articulate voice, such as was expressed at the grave of Lazarus; or a violent clap of thunder, which is the voice of God; or the exertion of the power of Christ, is not certain: it is added, [End Barnes] After all the verse focuses contextually on our Lord himself and His function not on such others present for it says: 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Joseph

  • defd
    defd

    It makes alot of sense to me.

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    Incredibly interesting discussion. It is when I read posts by Narkissos, Leolaia and Joseph Malik that I realise that (in the words of Manuel from "Fawlty Towers"): I know nooothing...(and I should certainly keep my mouth shut more often). It is confusing too, though. Both sides have such good arguments that I don`t know what to believe.(My personal, amaturish opinion, though, after reading the Bible a little last night: The "I am"-statements by Jesus in John are, as Narkissos said, in a "class of their own". There really is two sides to this story)

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    If the voice of the archangel is literal, what about the trumpet of God?

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    This has already been discussed to death, but it would be too long to find the previous threads without a working search function.

    I'd just like to recall that besides the apocalyptic tradition (to which 1 Thessalonians, Jude and Revelation belong in their own ways) which generally numbers several archangels, including Michael, there is another, Hellenistic use of the term archangel which is attested in Philo. There archangel is an alternate title for the one Logos or "Son of God" which is also described as the firstborn and eldest of angels (which are, according to the allegorical trend, described in a much less "personal" way than in the apocalyptic tradition).

    De Confusione linguarum 146: "And even if there be not as yet any one who is worthy to be called a son of God, nevertheless let him labour earnestly to be adorned according to his first-born word, the eldest of his angels, as the great archangel of many names; for he is called, the authority, and the name of God, and the Word, and man according to God's image, and he who sees -- Israel.

    Ibid., 63 "For the Father of the universe has caused him to spring up as the eldest son, whom, in another passage, he calls the firstborn (prôtogonos). And he who is thus born, imitating the ways of his father, as formed such and such species, looking to his archetypal patterns."

    Interestingly, while christological NT texts (Johannine, Pauline and post-Pauline) draw on this set of Hellenistic concepts they consistently avoid any angelic reference to Jesus Christ (and Hebrews which is perhaps the most Hellenistic work of all dismisses the notion explicitly -- the Son is not an angel). I guess the main reason is that they were inclined to take the apocalyptic angelology much more realistically than Philo did (angels are seen as real, personal, distinct creatures in heaven, not allegorical figures). In this perspective, it is pretty clear that the NT references to Michael and/or "archangel" do not apply to Jesus. However, there was probably an angelic christology too in early Christianity: the Hellenistic talk attributed to Stephen in Acts 7 might suggest it (note v. 15, 30, 35, 38), and it clearly surfaces in some Church Fathers, especially Justin Martyr -- here are a few examples from the First Apology:
    6:

    Hence are we called atheists. And we confess that we are atheists, so far as gods of this sort are concerned, but not with respect to the most true God, the Father of righteousness and temperance and the other virtues, who is free from all impurity. But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore, knowing them in reason and truth, and declaring without grudging to every one who wishes to learn, as we have been taught.

    22:

    Moreover, the Son of God called Jesus, even if only a man by ordinary generation, yet, on account of His wisdom, is worthy to be called the Son of God; for all writers call God the Father of men and gods. And if we assert that the Word of God was born of God in a peculiar manner, different from ordinary generation, let this, as said above, be no extraordinary thing to you, who say that Mercury is the angelic word of God.
    53:
    And all the Jews even now teach that the nameless God (another Philonian notion) spake to Moses; whence the Spirit of prophecy, accusing them by Isaiah the prophet mentioned above, said "The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib; but israel doth not know Me, and My people do not understand." And Jesus the Christ, because the Jews knew not what the Father was, and what the Son, in like manner accused them; and Himself said, "No one knoweth the Father, but the Son; nor the Son, but the Father, and they to whom the Son revealeth Him." Now the Word of God is His Son, as we have before said. And He is called Angel and Apostle; for He declares whatever we ought to know, and is sent forth to declare whatever is revealed; as our Lord Himself says, "He that heareth Me, heareth Him that sent Me." From the writings of Moses also this will be manifest; for thus it is written in them, "And the Angel of God spake to Moses, in a flame of fire out of the bush, and said, I am that I am, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of thy fathers; go down into Egypt, and bring forth My people." And if you wish to learn what follows, you can do so from the same writings; for it is impossible to relate the whole here. But so much is written for the sake of proving that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God and His Apostle, being of old the Word, and appearing sometimes in the form of fire, and sometimes in the likeness of angels; but now, by the will of God, having become man for the human race, He endured all the sufferings which the devils instigated the senseless Jews to inflict upon Him; who, though they have it expressly affirmed in the writings of Moses, "And the angel of God spake to Moses in a flame of fire in a bush, and said, I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob," yet maintain that He who said this was the Father and Creator of the universe. Whence also the Spirit of prophecy rebukes them, and says, "Israel doth not know Me, my people have not understood Me." And again, Jesus, as we have already shown, while He was with them, said, "No one knoweth the Father, but the Son; nor the Son but the Father, and those to whom the Son will reveal Him." The Jews, accordingly, being throughout of opinion that it was the Father of the universe who spake to Moses, though He who spake to him was indeed the Son of God, who is called both Angel and Apostle, are justly charged, both by the Spirit of prophecy and by Christ Himself, with knowing neither the Father nor the Son. For they who affirm that the Son is the Father, are proved neither to have become acquainted with the Father, nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin, according to the counsel of the Father, for the salvation of those who believe on Him, He endured both to be set at nought and to suffer, that by dying and rising again He might conquer death. And that which was said out of the bush to Moses, "I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and the God of your fathers," this signified that they, even though dead, are let in existence, and are men belonging to Christ Himself. For they were the first of all men to busy themselves in the search after God; Abraham being the father of Isaac, and Isaac of Jacob, as Moses wrote.

    There is a pretty clear theological line running from Philo to Justin via "Stephen". Why it did not make its way into a NT "angelic christology" -- which eventually included the opposite stance in Hebrews -- is, I think, the result of the settling of both dogma and canon by the 4th century. Last edit to add that an "angelic christology" does not mean a "low christology" (à la WT). In the Dialogue with Trypho Justin goes to great lengths to defend his angelic christology, yet repeatedly insists that the Son is "both Angel and God".

  • Honesty
    Honesty

    How could Jesus be Michael?

    13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me for 21 days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me after I had been left there with the kings of Persia.

    Dan 10:13 (HCSB)

    27 Then He said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and observe My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Don’t be an unbeliever, but a believer.”

    28 Thomas responded to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

    29 Jesus said, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed.Those who believe without seeing are blessed.”

    John 20:27-29 (HCSB).

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Narkissos,

    It looks like Trinitarian theology had a lot to do with forming the reasoning offered. Some will teach anything to get away from the idea that our Lord was an angel, even an important one called archangel. They also avoid implying he was a created being. Then they drown the subject with a lot of words in a flood of information so that the context of such texts gets muddled along the way. That is why I avoid quoting from such sources as much as possible.

    Here is an example of what results: the one Logos or "Son of God" which is also described as the firstborn and eldest of angels

    Nowhere do we find in scripture the teaching that the Logos was the eldest of the angels. And the reference Son of God is used of the Human Jesus in much the same way that it was used of the Human Adam. Angels is also used in scripture of human beings such as in Hebrews but many still think they are spirits due to comments made about such verses.

    This is also true of the “firstborn of all creation or creatures.” It is a reference to all human creation not the universe. How and when such angels came into existence was not our concern and is not detailed in scripture. Then we have: Joh 1:14 “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth”. Again this is a reference to the human Word that was made flesh and not the Word prior to such a time. This Word became the only begotten human of the Father personally since it was the Word that created Adam and the human race literally in such a beginning.

    What then does this mean to us? The fact that we do not know who literally created the animals for example. John only deals with the world, the human race in his Gospel. There is so much that we take for granted that is the result of copious comments and not texts. In such cases I do not simply offer such testimony but also include my position so that everyone knows where I stand on such matters. And this also means that there is plenty of room for us all to re-examine the texts and get their true and intended meaning as we are not getting this from such traditional sources.

    Joseph

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