HAS A CUCKOO LAID AN EGG IN YOUR BRAIN? (Ideas: whose are they?)

by Terry 63 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Confession
    Confession

    3.Each person has their own reality; what is true for one person isn't true for another. (This relativism is taught in University Philosophy classess and disables the thinking of whole generations of students).

    I tend to agree with the primary point I believe Terry is making. I think it's extraordinarily helpful for us to do our best to define things, and that doing so will bring clarity to our thoughts--and our lives. Furthermore, although my Myers-Briggs temperament classifies me as an Intuitive, for years I have fought the perception that I possess some magical ability to comprehend things--in favor of believing that there are good reasons for such comprehension. (Reasons that I may or may not be readily in touch with, but reasons nonetheless.) For instance, while many pride themselves in "going with their gut," I allow myself this policy only when the decision presented doesn't carry great potential ramifications. For decisions that do--or those that will affect others to whom I have commitments--I feel that I damn well better have good reasons for making the choices I do. And this certainly involves creating definitions.

    I can also agree that statements such as the one, in red, made above can provide a comfortable excuse for those who perhaps don't want to take the time (or don't have the guts) to make important decisions. It can also give them the freedom to do as they wish and easily dismiss any negative consequences brought on.

    However I believe it's a mistake to make strident statements to the effect that "something either is or is not true; case closed." To understand that, after conducting all due research into a subject, two people might see things differently--and thus make different decisions--is something with which we have to make peace.

    Terry provides this example...

    One person sees merely a "table".

    Another sees a "card table"

    Another person sees a "beige formica card table."

    Another person sees a "$27 beige folding formica top card table made by Eureka Mfg."

    Get it? The better informed the person's mind; the more details will be included in the definition under the concept of TABLE.

    And this one...

    A blind taste test among many people will not change a 1957 Chateau Mouton into ginger ale just because some hick from Palookaville tastes it! The wine maven who has taken the trouble of learning what wines are all about will correctly identify (place his concept on a 1:1 platform of identification) with the actual wine and its source.

    In the first example we're shown how, in the case of a table (a concrete object,) more information leads to a more detailed definition. Yet the conclusions we come to in life must so often enter the abstract world, where details are not as easily referenced.

    In the second a distinction is drawn between "some hick from Palookaville" and a "wine maven." But what if three wine mavens, all equally skilled and credentialled, come to three differing conclusions about the wine? And what if no authority exists to determine for certain where the wine indeed came from?

    This statement may not be accurate: "What is true for one person isn't true for another."

    I would however put it this way: "Well informed persons will still come to different conclusions on a matter."

    I perceive in Terry's posts that he (like most of us) is irritated at seeing so many accept something as "truth" without ever having challenged it as "truth." The more we reflect on it, the more infuriating it can become, and the more we want to show people how to use their minds. The danger of course is in thinking that, since there can be only one truth about a matter--and we have taken considerably more time than others to define the issues in question--that we are the ones with the truth. It is thinking like this that, if we're not careful, can lead to exactly the type of intolerance that organizations such as the Watchtower Society promote.

    We find the nascent beginnings of this thinking among those who, when communicating with us, insert comments such as, "Don't you get it?" or "Don't you see the difference?" indicating that they are the truly informed, the truly wise, and any disagreement we find must be the result of our weaker powers of discernment. It can't be that, as well informed, wise individuals, we might come to a slightly different conclusion than they, can it?

    Challenge people to define ideas and beliefs? Excellent!

    Insist that there is only one truth--and that unless we define ideas and beliefs as they do we are less enlightened "hicks from Palookaville?" Careful...

  • talesin
    talesin

    All well and good that we cannot change reality, fine, I will accept that premise for the purpose of this discussion.

    However, each person's perception of reality is different. And this is a good thing. If we all looked at things from a clinical aspect, much of our humanity would be lost. Each of us is a work-in-progress, shaped by our choices, and by happenstance. Ask 10 people their opinion, and you will get 10 different answers. This provides food for thought, and the opportunity to open one's mind to other ways of thinking, to 'step outside the box'.

    If we take 'feeling' out of the equation, what do we become? (Spock was quite torn, if you are familiar with the character, between his Vulcan suppression of emotions, and his Human need to emote.) Our perception of reality is intrinsically tied to our emotional makeup, it is part of our humanity.

    t

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    It is certainly healthy to realise and acknowledge that we are not the authors of the overwhelming majority of words, concepts, ideas and thought patterns which make up what we proudly call "our minds". However I think (as if that should mean anything) that our ability to test received ideas or to build new ones rationally or pragmatically is very limited. For the lack of time of course, for the continuous need to respond to new circumstances with a mostly unchecked background (thereby building new "first-hand experiences" on still "second-hand grounds," subjectively validating the latter without having actually checked them). Also because our mind can only question a limited number of parameters at one time, treating the other as constants even though they are not absolutely constant (as in a 1- or 2- unknown mathematical equation). Moreover our choice between concurrent ideas is heavily influenced by irrational factors as psychoanalysis has shown.

    Iow, the faint light of the logos-ratio shines forth in an infinity of unknown darkness which it can never comprehend and to which the only possible relationship is faith, not knowledge. The only way to enlarge the power of ratio, collectively, is to use it in network fashion, which precisely implies not to check everything individually. That's how language and culture in general, and the scientific community in particular, works. To dig his/her own area of expertise every scientist (every person) has to rely on, trust or believe in the expertise of others in other fields. One cannot understand and check everything.

    The rejection of "faith" in this perspective is not rationality, it is obsessional neurosis or psychosis. Remember Lacan's pun: les non-dupes errent / les noms du Père ("the non-dupe err" / "the names of the Father" -- "the Father" being the unknowable source of symbolism, to which we relate by an obscure and irrational faith, not knowledge).

  • zen nudist
    zen nudist
    No sense of beauty of proportion or symmetry is evident at all which would PERFORCE appear as a natural logical happening if the OMNI magazine article presented the view accurately.

    instead of viewing the link I sent you, which by the way was another of the same sort of study

    done in germany....you are pontificating, not much different from what you are warning about

  • Check_Your_Premises
    Check_Your_Premises

    Great analogy and write up Terry.

    I have removed many cuckoo eggs from my head over the years, and the motivation was exactly as you described. I had a big fat one, that got me burned really badly. The nice thing about having your entire world fall apart is that YOU get to put it back together. Not all the other people who put all those cuckoo eggs in your head.

    I have a feeling that you have shared a similar experience.

    Take care Terry.

    CYP

  • Satanus
    Satanus
    You are confusing people's accuracy and standard of thinking with OBJECTS which exist apart from their mind.

    I don't think that it is confusing me. I am pointing out that peoples' thoughts and concepts of something, a table in this case, is never totally accurate, never complete. I doubt that the real reality is ever comprehended in totality.

    Thank pythagorus for math. I heard that he had a theory that everything was made of numbers. Btw, tv is a much bigger cuckoo bird than the wt and a more prolific egg producer by an order of magnitued.

    S

  • Terry
    Terry
    In the second a distinction is drawn between "some hick from Palookaville" and a "wine maven." But what if three wine mavens, all equally skilled and credentialled, come to three differing conclusions about the wine? And what if no authority exists to determine for certain where the wine indeed came from?

    I know you wouldn't be implying the wine came from nowhere/anywhere.

    It came specifically from somewhere. The failure to identify the location affects the actuality of the source not one tiny bit!! It IS what it IS.

    That is what is flawed in the argument that what is "true" for one person may be different for another. The TRUTH is not a perception. The TRUTH correspondece with an actual facet of reality that is measurable.

    Authorities NEVER DETERMINE anything; reality determines things. THAT IS MY ENTIRE POINT. The best we can do is have our thoughts (ideas) in harmony with what IS and not pretend we affect anything at all by our miscalculations. For example: Columbus based his travel time on an incorrect estimate of the circumference of the earth. The trip took longer than he had imagined. However, he made a huge discovery in spite of his error. The actual distance and travel time didn't change just because thought it was to be shorter.

    Terry

    T.

  • doofdaddy
    doofdaddy

    Terry go and smell the flowers

    Life is illogical

  • Terry
    Terry
    However, each person's perception of reality is different. And this is a good thing. If we all looked at things from a clinical aspect, much of our humanity would be lost. Each of us is a work-in-progress, shaped by our choices, and by happenstance. Ask 10 people their opinion, and you will get 10 different answers. This provides food for thought, and the opportunity to open one's mind to other ways of thinking, to 'step outside the box'.

    If we take 'feeling' out of the equation, what do we become? (Spock was quite torn, if you are familiar with the character, between his Vulcan suppression of emotions, and his Human need to emote.) Our perception of reality is intrinsically tied to our emotional makeup, it is part of our humanity.

    t

    Think of it as estimates of reality. Think of reality as an actual amount of something.

    Let us say the reality of X is 135.99

    Each person gives their best estimate of that reality (not having the skill or commensurable standard to compute it).

    Person A says reality of X=120

    Person B says reality of X=140

    Person C says reality of X=132

    These are all versions of X AS PERCEIVED by those persons A, B, C.

    In most everyday situations we can be off by a decent measure and not end up dead because of inaccurate estimation of reality situations and decisions.

    However, there are some really important things that require extremely accurate estimates.

    The difference here is THE ABILITY to measure accurately. Do you know what that is? IT IS LOGIC applied to REASON.

    To have the prospect in life of dealing with situations as they arise with the most accurate way of weighing the plus and minus of them is to be totally committed to using reason and logic.

    No other method has ever advanced mankind one step forward.

    We deal in time and dollars and cents and distances each day. We cannot afford to be too far off in our ability to comprehend the measurement of each.

    But, there are other situations that are less quantifiable on a scale of numbers. That requires a different skill set.

    PERCEPTION OF REALITY is your ability to focus on the details and bring them clearly into defining measurement so that you can act in a way that benefits you.

    There is no matter of personal "taste" involved in how long it will take you to go to the bank, pick up your kids from school and buy groceries before your favorite program comes on TV.

    T.

  • Terry
    Terry


    For the lack of time of course, for the continuous need to respond to new circumstances with a mostly unchecked background (thereby building new "first-hand experiences" on still "second-hand grounds," subjectively validating the latter without having actually checked them). Also because our mind can only question a limited number of parameters at one time, treating the other as constants even though they are not absolutely constant (as in a 1- or 2- unknown mathematical equation).









    It is a way of meeting situations in your everyday life. A commitment to reason.
    I think Carl Sagan called it the BULLSHIT DETECTION KIT. Think of those exclusive nightclubs where there are bouncers at the door who carefully select who gets in and who doesn't pass muster. That is how a mind should be; very exclusive and only accepting of the best possible appearance.



    T.

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