by Jeffro 18 Replies latest watchtower bible
JCanon,
Interesting, but it's all a bit 'conspiracy theory'.
Additionally, pushing the rule of Cyrus and the Fall of Babylon forward by 82 years with Cyrus ruling in 455 is very awkward if not impossible, because it conflicts with known continuous Persian, Macedonian and Roman chronology through to Jesus' time.
Additionally, pushing the rule of Cyrus and the Fall of Babylon forward by 82 years with Cyrus ruling in 455 is very awkward if not impossible, because it conflicts with known continuous Persian, Macedonian and Roman chronology through to Jesus' time.
No and no.
One reason I often give the precise chronology. We know precisely what happened. Xerxes claimed he was Artaxerxes and then extra years were added to the Persian Period to make up for the extra 21-year rule of Xerxes, expand the reign of Darius I by 30 years and then add an extra 30 years to the reign of Artaxerxes II. In the meantime 26 years were stolen from the NB kings.
So No #1: When you know the exact chronology and where to add and subtract the chronology it is not awkward at all but brings clarity to the timeline.
No #2: There is no conflict with the "continuous history" you mentioned, particularly during the Greek Period because all the chronology is synchronized again by the reign of Artaxerxes III.
So now the ball is in your court. What you have to do is
1. Show a 36-year rule for Darius I instead of just six years as the Bible gives him, which you can't.
2. Prove that Artaxerxes and Xerxes were not the same king as the Bible says, which you can't.
3. And prove that the original NB chronology was as short as it is based upon original records, which you can't.
A chain is only as strong as its weakest link and the weak link is during the Persian Period.
Further adding 26 years to the NB Period doesn't cause any problems either.
Nebuchadnezzar rules 45 years, per the Bible.
Evil Merodach rules 18 years (per Josephus)
Nabonidus rules 19 years (per ecilpse and historical reference)
Darius the Mede rules 6 years (per the Bible).
Then all the chronology is replaced, the NB dating is reduced by 57 years. By the ecilpse of Bar-Sagale in the eponym list, the reduction becomes 54 years all the way back to the Exodus. But as I noted, this means Solomon gets down-dated 54-60 years (i.e. the 6-year co-rulership with Rehoboam not recognized adds another 6 years offset) which is in agreement with pottery dating ; archaeologists are claiming what Solomon claims to have done was found during the time of Omri, who they date to 870BCE which is where we now re-date Solomon.
LET ME GIVE YOU JUST ONE EXAMPLE OF WHAT YOU'RE UP AGAINST: The Bible definitely assigns Darius I only a 6-year rule and shows him followed by "Artaxerxes." (Ezra 6:14,15). Comparing Daniel 11:2 where the 4th king after Cyrus attacks Greece by prophecy, which is what "Xerxes" did, the 4th king after Cyrus is the successor to Darius I, thus Xerxes in history, but "Artaxerxes" in the Bible. So you've got to get past the Biblical reference.
Then if you do a quick look at archaeology, this is what you find out about Darius I. I was a prolific builder and loquacious historian and totally paranoid of revisionism. We have record that early in his rule he built a palace at Susa in just two years, then built a palace at Babylon for his son, co-ruler in just 2 years. Records at Persepolis shows that he began building there in his 4th year. And he talked extensively about who he got and hired to do the work etc. He was a great talker and had great plans of building many monuments in Persia. We wrote the history of hsi first 2 years in three different languages on the sheer cliffs of Behistun. But then, suddenly, it all stopped! A king who was building a palace every 2 years and in the middle of building Persepolis suddenly stopped and his son, "Xerxes" had to finish the building. And he didn't build anything else during the nest 30 years? Nor continued documenting what other great things he did during the last 30 years of his reign?
What DID he do during all those years? Did he invade anything? Conquer anything, build anything else? After such a great start?
OR...does the hard archaeology (I'm not talking about faked business tablets from 36 years of his rule which would have been frabricated automatically if his rule was extended) is lacking.
And what about where the kings are buried out at Naqshi-Rustam? Isn't "Xerxes" buried there? Yes. But Artaxerxes is buried in tomb #2 between Darius I and Darius II where Xerxes should have been buried. The tomb of Xerxes is lower, pointed in a different direction and much newer than the original three. Why aren't the kings buried in the right order?
Then you have the issue of Nehemiah to deal with. The Bible says he was the cupbearer to Artaxerxes. Well Artaxerxes proudly showed off his cupbearer who was a Jewish eunuch in the bas-reliefs at Persepolis, clearly Nehemiah. But this same Jewish eunuch is seen as the prime minister of Persia (cheif cupbearer) when Xerxes and Darius were co-rulers! This supports that Nehemiah had returned from Babylon with Zerubabbel, something Biblical scholars try to dismiss in various ways, including claiming the history was convulted and the history that makes it seem that Nehemiah and Ezra were present when the Jews first returned for some reason was transported to that incorrect position in the text since that could not be possible since Nehemiah has to live into the reign of Darius II, requiring him to live over 143 years.
On the other hand, the conspiracy does just the opposite of what you say. It doesn't confuse things but clarifies them.
Nehemiah's history as per the Bible gets corrected and he only has to live into his 90's when the chronology is corrected (he likely was at least 30 when he returned in 455BCE the same year Xerxes/Artaxerxes was born who lived to be 59). You don't have to claim the history was convoluted and inserted into the wrong place. You can leave things as they were.
We can also appropriate recognize the greatness of Nehemiah at Persepolis and put him into true archaeological context as being the prime minister of all of Persia even beginning with the co-ruler of Darius and Xerxes which began in the 3rd year of Darius I. It helps to understand why the same Jewish cupbearer is with both Xerxes and later Artaxerxes.
Plus, you have the problem with the last major building built at Persepolis, the Hall of 100 columns. It was started by Darius and "Xerxes" as co-rulers but the facade was finished by "Artaxerxes". This means either neither Darius nor Xerxes finished it over the period of 51 years, leaving it to be completed by Artaxerxes --OR--the building was begun when Xerxes was using that name but when Darius died in his 6th year and he changed his name to Artaxerxes per Persian custom, the facade was finished by his new name. Thus the building only took about 3 years to build instead of 56 years to build.
Then you have the issue of the physical anomaly of Xerxes and Artaxeres. Of course building inscription would reflect that Xerxes was the father of Artaxeres, but words are cheap. In the meantime, Artaxerxes had a famous anomaly that became his namesake. His right hand was longer than his left thus he became known as "Artaxerxes, Longimanus." Well, there are bas-reliefs at Persepolis of Xerxes and one particularly large one shows Xerxes with his hand turned vertically with one scene showing the inside and one the outside. The palm-side relief is more detailed than the rest of the artwork since it shows the creases in the hand of Xerxes. Thus the bas-relief clearly is highlighting the right hand of Xerxes! But why? It's because his physical anomaly was alerady famous and part of history and they wanted to save it for posterity, so they show it vertically from both sides. Elsewhere, Xerxes is holding onto the back of the throne of Darius, an indication that he is "sharing" the throne and thus the co-ruler. But for these two scenes he changes the position of his hand. This is understandable if Xerxes' was already known to have this famous longer hand for which be later became known as "Artaxerxes, Longimanus."
So you see, correcting the conspiracy resolves lots of historical and archaeological issues that are simply confusing and "puzzles" right now. All the contradictions between the Bible and this part of the history disappear and are explained when you finally accept that the Persians revised all of this history to protect the identity and then the antiquity of a very beloved king and the entire empire cooperated because it was during stress times between Persia and Greece.
So yes, people clam up when you say "conspiracy theory" but let's not invent huge problems out of thin air that are not really there. The resolving the conspiracy resolves the present problems and gives you complete harmony between Bible and secular references.
Can't you see? Dating the 1st of Cyrus in 455BCE and dating the 23rd of Nebuchadnezzar 70 years earlier to 525 BCE explains why the VAT4956 double dates year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar to 511BCE. The double-dating makes no sense otherwise, and it is too specific to be an accident.
??
Trust the Bible first and if you keep digging the science and archaeology as it becomes more expert will come into agreement with scripture. That's because the Bible is the truth.
JC
So now the ball is in your court. What you have to do is
1. Show a 36-year rule for Darius I instead of just six years as the Bible gives him, which you can't.
What DID he do during all those years? Did he invade anything? Conquer anything, build anything else? After such a great start?
OR...does the hard archaeology (I'm not talking about faked business tablets from 36 years of his rule which would have been frabricated automatically if his rule was extended) is lacking.
Darius had campaigns through Europe and Africa which indicate that his reign was longer than 6 years. Where in the bible does it say that he only reigned 6 years? It is unlikely that 36 years of 'faked business tablets' were produced, and the motive for doing so is also unclear. (I may have misinterpreted you becuase your sentence without the parenthetical statement becomes "does the hard archaeology is lacking".)
2. Prove that Artaxerxes and Xerxes were not the same king as the Bible says, which you can't.
Trust the Bible first and if you keep digging the science and archaeology as it becomes more expert will come into agreement with scripture. That's because the Bible is the truth.
These statements are contradictory. The bible says they are different people. Why not go with that?
3. And prove that the original NB chronology was as short as it is based upon original records, which you can't.
Along with a lot of other evidence, contemporary records of the period support the existing chronology very well. It suggests bias to say that these contemporary records are missing and 36 years of records were faked for another period simply to make the records fit an interpretation of the bible.
Darius had campaigns through Europe and Africa which indicate that his reign was longer than 6 years.
Well, since it takes less than a year to campaign through Europe or Africa that's not proof positive. But mind providing a reference for the excusion into Africa, unless that includes Egypt? And if so, WHAT YEAR historically? Thanks. Let's compare the specific reference and see how it stacks up.
Where in the bible does it say that he only reigned 6 years?
Ezra 6:14, 15.
It is unlikely that 36 years of 'faked business tablets' were produced, and the motive for doing so is also unclear. (I may have misinterpreted you becuase your sentence without the parenthetical statement becomes "does the hard archaeology is lacking".)
That's your position because you doubt the conspiracy. But IF the Persians revised their records, which meant expanding the reign of Darius I from 6 years to 36 years, they would have been negligent if they didn't try to create some business references or anything else that would make the 30 extra years seem more authentic. Think in terms of the CIA today. It's the organization that tells the best and most sophisticated LIES, fakes documents and whatever. But why? Because countries have enemies and they have to maintain "national security." Think in terms of YOU being a high official in charge of records during the time and what you would think up to prevent the Greeks from easily discovering that you had lied about Xerxes dying and had extended the reign of Darius by 30 years. What would YOU do? Also, how smart do you think at least one person was back then? Given a consultation of several wise persons to make this conspiracy work as far as records, what do you think they would come up with between them? What would be easy and what would be difficult? Making up clay tablets is super easy. Building buidings and monuments to represent the entire 36 years of Darius' works is another story. Sure, the clay tablets are there, but where are the buildings to go with them? That's what I'm asking.
These statements are contradictory. The bible says they are different people. Why not go with that?
The Bible indicates they are the same person, I am going with the Bible.
3. And prove that the original NB chronology was as short as it is based upon original records, which you can't.
Along with a lot of other evidence, contemporary records of the period support the existing chronology very well.
No it does not, is what I'm saying. But instead of saying "lot of other evidence" why not mention something specific or a list of the top five, irrefutable references you can come up with. If there is "lots" of other evidence then let's see it. Olof Jonsson came up with like 11 critical pieces of evidence that was supposed to prove the current NB chronology but all those reference evavorapted into thin air. At this point, therefore, since we might be talking about different things, I would appreciate it if you were SPECIFIC about the evidence. Let's just analyze five pieces of the critical evidence you have been convinced with.
Now Olof Jonsson said the most critical piece of evidence was the astronomical text VAT4956. But you can't use that since it has double dating to 511BCE. You can't use the SK400 either. You can't use the Babylonian Chronicle, the Cyrus Cylinder or the Nabonidus Chronicle since you can look up even in the "Insight" book that these documents are all known to be later "copies" dating to as late as the end of the Persian Period. They are known not to be contemporary documents. Yet upon these the foundation of the chronology is based.
You can't use thousands of business documents from the reign of Nebuchadnezzar because they are only "relative dated". They can fit anywhere within 100 years of the dating for this period. So what REALLY do you have that can be so convincing.
Most importantly, you can't use the Bible since besides only providing relative dating, the Bible contradicts this chronology right and left.
It suggests bias to say that these contemporary records are missing and 36 years of records were faked for another period simply to make the records fit an interpretation of the Bible.
So, out of all due respect having studied this period, there is not any piece of "evidence" that I've seen that would preempt so perhaps you know of something I don't. So I would love to know say just five critical pieces of "evidence" that has you completely convinced that the chronology was not revised. Maybe I'll learn something? List them and lets look at them individually. If it is anything in Olof Jonsson's list, save one eclipse reference, then you're outta luck. Most of the evidence most people think is authentic or contemporary is not so they think there is a mountain of evidence there, but actually it's just a mountain made out of cotton candy and soap suds sprinkled with brown chocolate dust that looks like a mountain from a distance. That's all.
JC
That's your position because you doubt the conspiracy. But IF the Persians revised their records, which meant expanding the reign of Darius I from 6 years to 36 years, they would have been negligent if they didn't try to create some business references or anything else that would make the 30 extra years seem more authentic. Think in terms of the CIA today. It's the organization that tells the best and most sophisticated LIES, fakes documents and whatever. But why? Because countries have enemies and they have to maintain "national security." Think in terms of YOU being a high official in charge of records during the time and what you would think up to prevent the Greeks from easily discovering that you had lied about Xerxes dying and had extended the reign of Darius by 30 years. What would YOU do? Also, how smart do you think at least one person was back then? Given a consultation of several wise persons to make this conspiracy work as far as records, what do you think they would come up with between them? What would be easy and what would be difficult? Making up clay tablets is super easy. Building buidings and monuments to represent the entire 36 years of Darius' works is another story. Sure, the clay tablets are there, but where are the buildings to go with them? That's what I'm asking.
Based on what you've said, there is no point stating any sources because you have the option of saying they were 'faked' as part of the 'conspiracy'. Why would the Persians bother to lie in the first place, and then make up a big cover-up? The specific motive seems unclear.
I don't have time to dig up references for this, and you've said you know all about them anyway so there is no point.
Stumbled upon Egyptian pharaoh Psamtik I while studying for school. One thing led to another and then I found this thread. Interesting stuff.
It is interesting from a secular perspective. I don't care about their chronologies. They invent doctrine and then come up with chronologies. It reminds me of Nisan 14 and Nisan 15. Since Passover is the main holiday of Judaism, I go with the rabbis.
What do Egyptian historians relate concerning the time span.
A complex thread.
Band on the Run:
What do Egyptian historians relate concerning the time span.
Unsurprisingly, Egyptian records support the accepted Neo-Babylonian chronology.
There is no evidence that Egypt was ever completely depopulated. However, if viewed from the perspective of Hophra, with whom Zedekiah was allied, then Egypt's 'desolation' could be seen as starting from Hophra's defeat. After Hophra was defeated, the reign of Amasis II continued for... forty years.
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