Can of worms. Good night.
Stem Cell Research article
by DevonMcBride 112 Replies latest jw friends
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Iforget
HUGE CAN OF WORMS! ClassLESS is what you should change your name to.
FIRST I did not "delay" my reproductive years by seeking a career. NOT that should matter in the first place. I have a son who is almost 10 and I was darn lucky to have him in my 20's. This second child is a miracle thanks to a failed IVF and a IUI replacement at the last minute. We were waiting for a donor egg and got lucky.
My reproductive years have been sorely challenged because my JW mother pioneer and Elder father refused to put me on birth control to help with endomitriosis as a teenager. By the time I was able to have children my insides had been scarred and almost rendered incabable. BUT NO ONE JUDGED THEIR DAUGHTER and by God she didn't take anything that would seem as if she were having sex.
How dare you judge ANYONE for delaying child bearing until they are financial responsible or chose to have a career and then stay home with a child. How dare you judge a process of which you know NOTHING about obviously. Are you an embryologist? Are you an RE? Are you an infertility nurse or have you gone thru it? Then SHUT UP until you know the facts. How nice for you to sit on the throne of decision of child bearing and dictate what is right and wrong. Check your facts idiot...most women who are going thru infertility have tried for YEARS to have a child and IVF is a very last resort.
Once again someone goes on and on and on and on about a subject which they have very little knowledge.
I am almost to the point of cursing and that is rare for me. I hate judgment and I hate stupidity and when they go hand in hand as is the case here it's almost to the point that I just shouldn't respond.
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the_classicist
I'm not "judging" anyone and if you use your mind and actually read my post you would see that I talk in general terms.
How dare you judge a process of which you ;know NOTHING about obviously. ; Are you an embryologist? ; Are you an RE? ; Are you an infertility nurse or have you gone thru it? ; Then SHUT UP until you know the facts. ; How nice for you to sit on the throne of decision of child bearing and dictate what is right and wrong. ; Check your facts idiot...most women who are going thru infertility have tried for YEARS to have a child and IVF is a very last resort. ;
Wow, talk about ad hominem, and you call me an "idiot." An appeal to authority is also a fallacy, btw.
Or perhaps you would like me to bow before your great knowledge in light of your ineffable argument, O wise and prudent one?
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Iforget
Well then perhaps you should go back and read your post about chosing a career before child bearing and that is why IVF is used. You were not speaking in "general" terms at all. You were offensive and rude and judgmental.
And one more thing and then I digress because this is futile ... every single embryo was cherished and loved with the highest of hopes for a child. You simply have zero idea of what you speak and cannot until you walk in those shoes.
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the_classicist
Well then perhaps you should go back and read your post about chosing a career before child bearing and that is why IVF is used. You were not speaking in "general" terms at all. You were offensive and rude and judgmental.
Perhaps you should go back yourself and look and see that I said "most people."And one more thing and then I digress because this is futile ... every single embryo was cherished and loved with the highest of hopes for a child. You simply have zero idea of what you speak and cannot until you walk in those shoes.
If it were valued as human life, it would never have been put in that situation in the first place. And don't give me that "walk in those shoes" crap either as it can be used to justify anything and is not a valid argument. For example, Bill says, "So, Greg killed the guy who was screwing his wife. I can't believe he did that." And Bob says, "Well, I guess you have to walk a mile in his shoes."
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Mary
scientists are creating human life in a laboratory and usually destroying it, which is what happens regularly in IVF. Does it really matter if they can't feel any pain?
Uh, yes that it matters a great deal if they can't feel any pain.
I would think that even bacteria can feel a certain kind of 'pain', but not the kind produced by our sophisticated neurological system for even bacteria are able to sense harmful substances and move away from them.
Well holy crap, I guess I'll never take penacilin again.........after all, I would want to violate bacteria's Rights to Exist.
Human conception is not equal to a fully grown baby. It just a bunch of cells in the beginning. Would you equate one wire in your PC as the same as a fully developed computer? These cells at conception do not feel pain because at that point, they do not have "our sophisticated neurological system", so that point is moot.
And Classicist, I'd say you owe someone an apology. Your posting and judgemental attitude was incredibly insensative.
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rem
If Classicist is right then I guess we'll have to start having funerals for all of those miscarriages that happen. This could really be a boon to the coffin industry!
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EvilForce
Why is it that all rabid anti-abortionists are always men? Go figure.
Hey if it's me or the lump of cells....too bad I win.
If it's me or the fetal stem cell tissue....too bad I win.
If a Chinese prisioner is selling a redundant organ to support his family for the rest of their life....too bad I win.
Yup, I'm a greedy life loving pig. Nope it's not PC. It ain't pretty. But pontificating on how you would pass on a life saving operation using some discarded fetal tissue. I call bullshite! -
tetrapod.sapien
life doesn't start at conception. a computer program starts executing at conception.
classicist,
i hope that you have the same "respect" for the sanctity of life with regards bacteria. every time you wash your hands, you murder some of them. and you share a distant ancestor with them. how horrid! and i hope you have "respect" for where you walk on the sidewalk so as not to step on any ants, because after all, you share a common ancestor with them. you also share a common ancestor with the vegetables at the supermarket. do you support the inhumane killing of vegetables just because you need to eat? how selfish!
or is it that humans are "special"? and why would humans be special? because we have big brains and walk upright? it's funny that we're nothing more than hosts for DNA to survive via, and we think we are so bloody special.
a clump of cells executing genetic code is as much a human as the software running on this MS IIS server.
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the_classicist
Uh, yes that ;it matters a ;great deal if they can't feel any pain.
Human life is human life, even though no pain exists. I'll repeat my analogy, you can kill someone painlessly, but that's still murder.
That wasn't the point I was making, but, hey, don't kill bacteria if don't want to.Well holy crap, I guess I'll never take penacilin again.........after all, I would want to ;violate bacteria's Rights to Exist.
Human conception is not equal to a fully grown baby. ; It just a bunch of cells in the beginning. ; Would you ;equate one wire ;in your PC as the same as ;a fully developed computer? ; These cells at conception do not feel pain because at that point, they do not have "our sophisticated neurological system", so that point is moot.
That's an entirely false analogy. One wire in your PC does not have the potential, ever, to become an entire computer. An zygote is fully capable of becoming a fully formed human being and is a human life. I don't care whether that life can feel pain or not: a life is a life no matter how you go about it. Every human being has the right to exist.
And Classicist, I'd say you owe someone an apology. ; Your posting and judgemental attitude was incredibly insensative.
Yes, I suppose her view is totally correct and moral and I'm completely wrong.. talk about pontificating.
Why is it that all rabid anti-abortionists are always men? Go figure.
Wow, what a great way to convince people, EvilForce; call someone a name! I'll do that too, you rabid homosexual: see, it's not very productive.
Hey if it's me or the lump of cells....too bad I win.
If it's me or the fetal stem cell tissue....too bad I win.
If a Chinese prisioner is selling a redundant organ to support his family for the rest of their life....too bad I win.
Yup, I'm a greedy life loving pig. Nope it's not PC. It ain't pretty. But pontificating on how you would pass on a life saving operation using some discarded fetal tissue. I call bullshite!You're a real lump of cells, EvilForce. A huge lump of cells, but still a lump of cells. You are an human entity, but so is that embryo. You both have the right to live, but you can't selfishly infringe on another's right to life in order to sustain your own. The Chinese prisoner will still be able to live, but you don't even give the "lump of cells" the ability to. There's a difference between destroying another's life in order to get a life saving operation and taking someone else's tissue, in which case they are still able to life.
Non-embryonic stem cells are more difficult to get. But ethical things are always more difficult to do. Let's put this into an analogy related to your own field: pharmaceutical research. The pharmer wouldn't immediately start testing their drug on humans for it is a reckless use of human life. Sure, it's much easier and a lot less work to go straight to testing on humans, but it's wrong. Likewise, it may be harder to harvest non-embyronic stem cells, but you do not infringe on a person's right to life in order to do so.