Even if you don't believe in God, do you believe that spirits exist?

by sonnyboy 53 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  DannyBloem

  No.

  Ideomotor effect:

  Scientific tests by American psychologist William James, French chemist Michel Chevreul, English scientist Michael Faraday, and American psychologist Ray Hyman have demonstrated that many phenomena attributed to spiritual or paranormal forces, or to mysterious "energies" are actually due to ideomotor action. Furthermore, these tests demonstrate that "honest, intelligent people can unconsciously engage in muscular activity that is consistent with their expectations" (Hyman 1999). They also show that suggestions that can guide behavior can be given by subtle clues (Hyman 1977).
• 

  sonnyboy

  The worst it can do is kill us. Then guess what, we get to be a ghost/spirit. Once we're there, why can't we find the spirit/demon that killed us and kick its ass in the spirit world?

  LOL! I like your attitude.
• 

  sonnyboy

  I saw that episode. In fact, I have it recorded. How do you get the idea that it didn't go off in all of the rooms? Nothing in the show suggested that.

  Sorry if I didn't make my post more clear. I didn't mean this was demonstrated in that particular program (although it sounded like I did, maybe I did, but I digress), but I've seen many programs in which this test was applied and the readings did not always resgister in rooms that had electrical outlets/wiring. They also didn't register in the same room every time, which seems to indicated that the "presence", if there is a presence, may not be stationary. I'm trying to keep an unbiased view of things.

  My point was that Bullshit is an extremely biased program. When Penn has something set in his mind, he does everything in his power to discredit anyone with an opposing view, and he doesn't always look at both sides of the coin. I'm still pissed about the episode on the ESA in which they showed no concern whatsoever for the preservation of our environment in general.
• 

  sonnyboy

  another thing you and your bro should try sonny, is haul the board out again, and try it blindfolded.

  
  

  
  I've heard stories of people doing this (I think I've heard a couple on this board alone) with accurate results.

  Either someone's lying or there's more to this than meets the eye.

  I'm not sure if I'll be trying it again. I've seen to many inexplicable things to NOT believe to some extent.
• 

  Frog

  it's called psychosis!

  I think if you believe enough, despite the beliefs having no factual basis, those strong beliefs can be real in their consequences. I don't doubt that what many believe they see and experience seems very real to them.
• 

  sonnyboy

  If you are unconsciously exaggerating this mundane fact, how can you or anyone trust that you aren't exaggerating your other more extraordinary claims?

  My 'extraordinary claims' were witnessed by more than one person. If there are some form of spirits amongst us, they seem to be concentrated on certain people (my brother, for instance, has always had strange things happening to him). He's been present during every inexplicable event I've witnessed.

  I definitey understand the stance of the hard-core skeptic who's never experienced anything like this...such people have no reason to believe, and that's OK. The thing that I find odd is that many hard-core skeptics seem to get an attitude when presented with 'extranatural' (patent pending) events as if they want to believe but are upset that these things happened to someone other than them.
• 

  sonnyboy

  Frog, I believe that the mind has more power than science can measure. Maybe these things DO happen through brain waves or some other physiological means.

  How do Asian monks generate enough body heat to make steam come from their wet garments? How can some people create an electric current through their bodies powerful enough to knock someone on their ass and catch paper on fire?

  If these events are real, then I see no reason why we can't do other extraordinary things through the power of suggestion.
• 

  Frog

  I see where you're coming from sonny, but it's difficult for me to relate since I'm an unaffected skeptic. These things always seem to have happened to a friend of a friend of mine. In the couple of instances where there has been only 1degree of separation between me and some sort of paranormal, I've had to seriously question the sources credibility. My g'ma & her sister for instance appear to suffer from schitzophrenic paranoid delusions. Both of them have looked at me in the face and told me specific examples of such happenings, completely convinced of the very realness off the experience, not even thinking for a moment that I would be listening in disbelief. These events do tend to concentrate on a few people repeatedly. The org had us believing that these people had done something to welcome these things into their lives. This is completely a useless theory considering it's unlikely those people do anything differently in their lives to me. I strongly believe it has something to do with brain mechanics, especially since it doesn't seem like completely random events, but apparitions that are visited on a select few.
• 

  sonnyboy

  I totally expect people to listen in disbelief. Hell, I would too if my family and I didn't experience very "strange" things from time to time.

  Things got so strange at one point that my mother would not stay in the house by herself at night. How can a children's record player, that has to be MANUALLY turned on by a plastic, sliding switch, come on by itself in the middle of the night? And it started playing on my brother's 'Gremlins' story record when they were laughing.

  Maybe my family has exceptionally strong brain waves. I'm not claiming that spirits are involved, but it seems that something is happening that cannot currently be explained.

  I've heard people say, "Why would spirits do such trivial things that seem to serve no purpose?" I would say...to scare us? (if they are involved). Maybe they bust a celestial nut on that kind of crap, I don't know.
• 

  Frog

  I don't see why we're so determined to define such things that in the end aren't really harmful. This might be a stretch but is it much different to us not personally understanding the full laws of the universe, we're just satisfied that someone out there does, and if we want to pick up a text book and read about them we can.