Any Buddhists here? My sister is interested...trying to get info

by Eyebrow2 35 Replies latest jw friends

  • Eyebrow2
    Eyebrow2

    hey there..thanks to everyone that has responded to this topic.

    Logansrun...I don't know if I can worship you quite yet, but if you put some nifty holidays together and throw in a cool robe for your worshipers I will consider it.

    Didn't think it would get so contriversial...but I guess all religion can hahah.

    I have read Tao of Pooh years ago, and think will get another copy.

    Thank you all for the suggestions...I am going to see what books that have been suggested here are in the public library.

    My little sisters stopped going to the hall over 5 years ago, when she was fairly young, and has never been a publisher, and never was in the JW religion as much as I was, so I don't think she is really jumping from one religion to another. Also, she is just interested in learning more about it, because it sounds like you don't have to believe in God to get something out of it. She says she is an athiest, so that is important to her.

  • scotsman
    scotsman

    I was surprised at how uptight the replies to Terry's post were too. Seems the Tao encourages condescension!

  • logansrun
    logansrun

    Pole,

    No, the Websters dictionary is where I conveniently go to define a word, in this case, "metaphor." By your phrase "unverifiable metaphors" you either are stating that all metaphors are unverifiable (which is true, but pointless in trying to denigrate Buddhism) or that some metaphors are verifiable (which is false, in which case you misunderstand the concept of metaphor).

    B

  • logansrun
    logansrun

    Re: Terry

    It's not so much just this response that get's me annoyed at Terry, it's the pattern of responses he has made on this forum ever since he joined. He pounds the same old Ayn Randian arguments over and over again with utter contempt for other ways of thinking and the utmost pompousness.

    That's okay, though. Like I said, I'm sure I'd like Terry if I met him. My worldview probably mirrors him more than he thinks. It's just the attitude which I find unappealing -- though, paradoxically, somewhat endearing as well. Terry's a big boy. He can withstand my criticisms.

    B.

  • Pole
    Pole

    logansrun,


    Forget the rhetorics of my post. It was only used in reply to the amount of hot air (needless sarcasm) that I think your post produced.

    The problem with language dictionaries (and making such dictionaries is one of my research areas) is that they provide popular definitions. Such definitions can be used as a starting point to debate concepts, but it'd be a fallacy to assume that dictionaries contain much more than the most popular definitions of concepts. If you need a technical definition of a concept, you usually distrust popular dictionaries (sometimes there are a few competing defintions of the same concept). So rather then try to ridicule my use of the concept of metaphor by showing how it's out of keeping with the Webster's one, you should have asked me first what I understand by a metaphor. And my understanding of the concept is similar to the understanding well established in many modern cognitive sciences.

    In short:

    Metaphors are not merely figures of speech. They are figures of thought. You can't say, or even conceive of anything abstract without using a metaphor. The metaphor may be implicit, but it's still there. An example:

    Time. Can you produce two sentences about time without using a spacial metaphor? No. Even the basic prepositions such as "before", "after", "from", "to" which are used to describe temporal relations are primarily spacial prepositions.

    So nearly all abstract thinking is metaphorical. Much of hard science is metaphorical. ("hard" science is another metaphor). Still, science is different from poetry since the former is based on some clearly defined methodology. So, while there's nothing wrong with using metaphors (in fact metaphorization is unavoidable when it comes to abstract thinking), there are more verifiable metaphors and less verifiable metaphors. Example: in astrophysics you talk about "dwarves and giants". In physics time is sometimes conceived as a "dimension". But at the end of the day, we can put a finger on the aspects of reality which such metaphors are supposed to describe and how they are insufficient for the purposes of descritption.

    Of course there are branches of science where metaphors go more blurry (hello! another metaphor), but thanks to the metascience of methodology we can still show how these metaphors are only metaphors and that they are only to be used temporarily until more data is collected and framed into other metaphorical constructs. This is what I call the verifiablity of metaphors.

    On the other hand, religious metaphors are usually perceived as eternal truths. There is no methodology to help verify them. Most of the time they are verified by other, equally insubstantieted religious metaphors. To give you an example from Christianity:

    In explaining "the nature of God" some Christians like to claim that God is our loving father (an anthropomorphic metaphor). When asked why this loving father allows so much suffering, they try to verify this metaphor by saying we are his little children (another metaphor) and so as little children we can't and don't need to know all that our loving father knows. Therefore it makes perfect sense not only that God is our loving father, but also that we are his little children. So you can see that there is no attempt to verify the first metaphor by some independent methodology, or by sensory data. Rather the first metaphor is substantieted by another metaphor.

    The tricky thing is, since all our cognition works in terms of metaphors and a few other cognitive mechanisms, most people fall for it, because they get "the pseudo rational feeling" it all makes perfect sense.

    Of course you could argue that no metaphors are truly verifiable and you'd be right. But some metaphorical conceptual systems are more concerned with verifiablity than others. In the Western tradition there are different degrees of verifiability of metaphors as they get used in poetry, science, philosophy and religion.




    :: By your phrase "unverifiable metaphors" you either are stating that all metaphors are unverifiable (which is true, but pointless in trying to denigrate Buddhism) or that some metaphors are verifiable (which is false, in which case you misunderstand the concept of metaphor).





    Here is a review of a book which got many cognitive scientists to treat metaphors in a way similar to the way I see them: http://www.norvig.com/mwlb.html (BTW, I've used about a hundred metaphors in this post)

    Cheers,

    Pole (I'm off to Luxembourg for a week, but I'd like to read your comments when I'm back)

  • Terry
    Terry
    It's not so much just this response that get's me annoyed at Terry, it's the pattern of responses he has made on this forum ever since he joined. He pounds the same old Ayn Randian arguments over and over again with utter contempt for other ways of thinking and the utmost pompousness.


    UTTER CONTEMPT is an interesting phrase choice. Also UTMOST POMPOUSNESS is revealing.

    Go back and read the last few sentences on my original post about Buddhists. I felt I needed to clarify my attitude personally.

    How did you miss that? Deliberately? *************************************************************************************************************** (edited to insert my original post epilogue): Sorry to be a wet blanket.

    I wish somebody had shot straight with me when I first asked questions about the Jehovah's Witness paradise BEFORE I got in too deep.

    Take this with a sense of my caring and not an old cynical sourpuss spitting acid on flowers and incense.

    T.

    ************************************************************************************************************

    My pattern of responses follow the pattern of the posts I respond to. You could accurately point out that it is the same old assertions I am responding to. This would make my same old Ayn Randian arguments seem more natural in response to those assertions.

    But then, that would be a fair analysis. We wouldn't want that to interfere with your emotional reaction to the content of my responses (which I feel is the actual issue, but, reframed.)

    But, there I go again with my UTTER CONTEMPT presented with UTMOST POMPOUSNESS.

    Funny, here in the states we'd say "pomposity". No harm; no foul.

    Terry

  • Elsewhere
    Elsewhere

    Eyebrow,

    I'm an atheist and am also drawn to the Buddhist and Taoist teachings. There are many concepts that they teach that I agree with. I also like that, at their core, they are inherently atheist. Unfortunately over the centuries the followers of these religions have gradually adopted many deities and wrapped them around the basic teachings. I also have a very hard time engaging in anything I perceive as "ritual", and both religions have lots to rituals. I have also noticed that many of the people are seriously into “natural healing”, “herbal therapies”, “auras” and I just don’t buy into that crap one bit -- if it cannot be measured and quantified, then I don’t believe in it.

    In the end, I believe many of the teachings and enjoy the relaxation and meditation; I just cannot bring myself to go to a “temple” because of the rituals that would be going on.

    I don't know where your sister lives, but here in the Dallas area there are several Buddhist temples. In the past I tried to find some Taoist temples, but could not.

  • Terry
    Terry
    Or perhaps you have a problem with metaphoric language en toto. If so, then we must eliminate all poetry, large portions of literature, much of philosophy. Hell, lets burn all the paintings, tear down all the sculptures and forbid the playing of music while we're at it!

    Now this is UTTER CONTEMPT. And silly, too.

    T.

  • EvilForce
    EvilForce

    Terry I hope I didn't come across as mean nor judgemental....twas not my intent. I'm sorry if I offended you. I've given this thread a good deal of thought.

    I think what I failed to convey earlier is that: "Terry you worship at the altar of intellectualism". I was gathering many quotes, sentances, paragraphs that were "simple and clear" as you asked for and not filled with methapors. But I realized that you and your religion is no better than any other. You choose intellectualism as your religion. All religions are artificial constructs of the mind in which to interpret data / beliefs. The words your chose to use are really no better (or worse) than any other religion. You relgion's language must pass what you feel to be "absolute truths". But is your's any different than any one elses? I think not.

    Your intellectualism should be judged just as any other religion. Terry, you must ask yourself....are you happy? Just because you are using intellectual langauge doesn't mean you can say it's anything other than spiritualism. It's your minds construct on how to view the world....it's no better nor worse than Catholics, Buddhists, Taoist, etc. It must stand on it's own. DOES IT WORK FOR YOU? ARE YOU HAPPY?

    Perhaps this is where the Tao may be beneficial...metaphors and all.

    The Way that can be experienced is not true;
    The world that can be constructed is not real.
    The Way manifests all that happens and may happen;
    The world represents all that exists and may exist.

    To experience without abstraction is to sense the world;
    To experience with abstraction is to know the world.
    These two experiences are indistinguishable;
    Their construction differs but their effect is the same.

    Beyond the gate of experience flows the Way,
    Which is ever greater and more subtle than the world.

    So as I mentioned before my intent was never to demean you. If that's what came across I apologize.

  • GentlyFeral
    GentlyFeral
    Also, she is just interested in learning more about it, because it sounds like you don't have to believe in God to get something out of it.

    This is true; but the same is true of Unitarian Universalists. Atheists, humanists and agnostics are a majority in the UUA. And a lot of their churches offer comparative religion classes, Buddhist (and other) study groups, etc.

    gently feral

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